Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?

[YPU]

I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around some of the sponsored magic flavours. Soul-fire requiring goodynies I can live with, but Kemmlerian Necromancy really ticks me of. What source of power does it draw on, specifically? I can only think of death itself and I just don't see death as having so much of an agenda.
I feel that if an bad guy is using sponsored magic this should limit him somehow, allowing the players to get an edge in once they recognize the pattern, but what does kemmlerian force a necromancer to do what he would not have done already?
The same goes for the layline sponsor in the neutral grounds case file. I understand that some sources might be more mysterious and knowledgeable, but that seems to make them also unplayable or at least flavourless and bland when they come in to play.

Anyhow, I am sure this has been addressed in the past, I just haven't been able to find it yet.

[Tedronai]

Personally, I have more of a problem, from a narrative standpoint, with Soulfire having an agenda at all than I do with the difficulty discerning an appropriate agenda for Kemmlerian Necromancy.

But that's not really helpful, so...
The Agenda is useful and manifests at essentially only 3 times and in only 3 ways in a game.
Those are:
Compelling the character in service to the Sponsor if that is appropriate to the manner by which they gained the power.
Determining when Debt will be made available.
Determining what Compels are appropriate to 'pay back' the above Debt

[sinker]

It is a bit more nebulous. Since there's no direct sponsor (and thus no obvious desire or motive), we're looking at compels that draw the player further into necromancy (or if you wish, further towards being a necromantic monster). Consider that Refresh can be representative of free will. The less refresh you have, the less fate points are available to counter compels and the more you simply follow your nature (your nature being your aspects). Look at it similarly, but replace the PC's nature with "Heartless monster who desires only more power and death" (or really however you view the darkest necromancers should be).

[YPU]

Tedronai, I would agree with you but the example in the book gives me a clear enough vibe, a suicidal goody two-shoes to the end, but that is something you could twist and turn enough to be a real pain in the arse every now and again.

sinker, I don't think I would readily allow a player necromancy at all, unless it was a evil game or a repentant necromancer. But besides that I was looking at how this could make villains more interesting cause the way you describe it its making them more of a 2d cartoon villain than anything else.

[sinker]

Yeah, the compels draw him into cartoon villain territory (or even better horror monster territory). It's his own nature that gives him depth, transforms him into a character rather than a cardboard cutout.

[Tedronai]

Tedronai, I would agree with you but the example in the book gives me a clear enough vibe, a suicidal goody two-shoes to the end, but that is something you could twist and turn enough to be a real pain in the arse every now and again.

Soulfire uses the user's own soul for fuel.  The 'sponsor' of Soulfire, then, is the user's own soul.  It is not the White God, or even his Archangel servants.

[Mr. Death]

The sponsor isn't just about where the fuel is coming from. You can only use Soulfire if you've got the White God's blessing, so to speak. That means it's His power, and He is the sponsor.

[Tedronai]

You can only use Soulfire if you've got the White God's blessing

Unless I missed a WoJ, somewhere, we have nowhere near enough information on the subject to support that conclusion.

[Mr. Death]

Unless I missed a WoJ, somewhere, we have nowhere near enough information on the subject to support that conclusion.

You mean besides Uriel all but saying as much to Harry--that Harry was granted the ability to use Soulfire by Uriel, with the further implication it's because he was able to turn Lash to the light side? Or that Bob tells him that's how Angels do their thing (i.e., it's the power of God and the Angels)? How Thorned Namshiel calls it "our power," i.e., that it's power belonging to Angels?

Yeah. Nothing at all to suggest such a thing, I don't know what I was thinking.

[UmbraLux]

There's also the write up in the book - it states Soulfire draws on the "fires of Creation" and follows an agenda "in line with Heaven".

As for Kemmlerian necromancy, I treat its agenda as a corrupting decent into the powers of Death/Undeath.  Since the Lawbreaker powers tend to reinforce the Kemmlerian powers, it's an ever descending spiral of corruption.   

[Adin]

Unless I missed a WoJ, somewhere, we have nowhere near enough information on the subject to support that conclusion.

Sounds like you are arguing the Sanya point of view.   

[Tedronai]

You mean besides Uriel all but saying as much to Harry--that Harry was granted the ability to use Soulfire by Uriel, with the further implication it's because he was able to turn Lash to the light side? Or that Bob tells him that's how Angels do their thing (i.e., it's the power of God and the Angels)? How Thorned Namshiel calls it "our power," i.e., that it's power belonging to Angels?

Yeah. Nothing at all to suggest such a thing, I don't know what I was thinking.

Uriel, Heaven's 'wet-works man', who is explicitly pointed out as being impressively deceitful in his own way, neglects to state something outright.  Yep, that's real solid evidence, there.
It's something Angels are known for doing.  Obviously this means that only those who follow the same Power that those angels do can access this power.
Angels cast out of Heaven for rebellion have been barred from the use of this power.  Because an entity capable of creating a host of Angels and then banishing them couldn't possibly also cut them off from a source of power unless that power came from the entity itself.

If you're paying attention, you'll note that the second half of each of those was sarcasm.

There's also the write up in the book - it states Soulfire [...] follows an agenda "in line with Heaven".

This is what we call 'begging the question'.

Soulfire draws on the "fires of Creation"

Which is evidence of nothing more than that which is referred to as 'the fires of creation' could also be accurately referred to as 'soulfire'.  It is irrelevant to the question of whether Soulfire properly has a Sponsor external to the soul of the user themself.

[Becq]

So, basically, other than exposition in the novels and YS, there's no evidence that soulfire's sponsor is heaven?  I guess Hellfire's sponsor is also ambiguous?

[Mr. Death]

If the crux of the argument starts with, "Okay, first just ignore everything we've actually been told about it (except for the single bit that supports my point)," then maybe it's not the right one.

[UmbraLux]

This is what we call 'begging the question'.

I'm not sure you know what that fallacy means...I quoted a (presumably) authoritative source (the rule book).  If you don't accept the book as authoritative you have a point.  But then we also lose any common point of view to discuss from.