Author Topic: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?  (Read 8974 times)

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2012, 06:36:53 PM »
Opinions on Kemmelr Necro:

Likely  the following potential agendas: get more power
 use more necromancy
 become dark gods
 ressurect kemmler
work towards kemmelrs goals he had in life
 find the secret of life and death
 live forever in some fashion
subvert the minds of others and control all you see
be generally eveil (horror movie or comic book style, doesn't matter)\\

Soulfire agendas:
preserve free will
oppose those who subvert free will
crush those from the Down Below

(I doubt Archangels will grant the ability to use Soulfire to those who aren't the good guys.)

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Offline Becq

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2012, 09:45:50 PM »
The DFRPG rules for power sources assume that each power source has an actual entity (or proto-entity) of some sort that guides/restricts its useage.  I don't know if that is entirely accurate to Jim Butcher's concept of Kemmlerian Necromancy -- I had been under the impression that it was more of a cult that had learned certain methods or techniques for applying magic (in seriously Lawbreaking ways).

Assuming, however, that Kemmlerian Necromancy does qualify as a power source -- and therefore has some sort of entity controlling it -- how should it work, and what should its agenda be?

First, I'd assume that KN's source is either (a) some sort of ancient spirit that Kemmler discovered and struck a bargain with in order to gain power for himself, or (b) a spirit that was 'born' out of Kemmler's accumulation of power (or possibly out of the release of power as he died).  This spirit wants to increase its own power or accomplish some goal (destruction of all life, for example), and it's willing to 'invest' some of its power in order to achieve some later windfall.

As such, I'd stay away from agenda items like 'accumulate personal power for the power source user'.  This may be a means to one or more of the source's goals (because more powerful lackeys might assist in achieving goals), but it isn't a goal on its own.

Here's my take on KN's goals:
  • Weaken (and ultimately break down) the barriers between life and death (this allows KN to exert its power more directly)
  • Sow fear among the living (because KN can feed on fear)
  • Sacrifice life to KN (killing mortals through KN feeds the power of their life-force back into the source)
  • Ultimately extinuish all life, replacing the chaos of the living with the perfection of death


If KN is actually an embodiment of Kemmler himself, then a goal such as "resurrect Kemmler" would make sense.  But I'd favor KN as a dark spirit that Kemmler sought to partner with over KN being Kemmler himself.

Offline Radecliffe

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2012, 11:07:53 PM »
Kimmlerian Necromancy isn't sponsored magic.  In Dead Beat Harry makes the epiphany that just has the magic he knew has its source in the power of life necromancy has its source in the power of death.  It's positive charge vs. negative charge.  Ying vs. yang. 

Offline Becq

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2012, 11:54:08 PM »
And the DFRPG rules disagree with you (and I) on that opinion, or at least on your first sentence (the rules do agree that the power for Kemmlerian Necromancy is drawn from death).  As far as DFRPG RAW is concerned, Kemmlerian Necromancy is sponsored magic (see the sponsored magic section starting on YS287), and therefore "is the result of a contract, pact, or other binding arrangement, implicit or explicit" with a power source (sponsor) that is an "at least semi-aware, if not fully-aware, entity" (all quotes reference YS287).

So my post above was basically "Ok, so Kemmlerian Necromancy is defined as a sponsored magic by the game; how should the sponsor be built?"  Which is important in discussing the original topic of this thread.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2012, 04:27:46 AM »
You know, Kemmlerian Necromancy makes a lot of sense as self-sponsored magic. Which doesn't exist, by canon, but whatever.

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2012, 03:55:49 PM »
You know, Kemmlerian Necromancy makes a lot of sense as self-sponsored magic. Which doesn't exist, by canon, but whatever.

Maybe it does.  You could claim that the Necromaner's own darker nature is the sponsor, similar to the way that Harry talks to and is sometimes at odds with his own subconscious.  So long as there is an opportunity for the character to go into hock to something with an agenda that will occasionally be at odds to his best interests the sponsor debt system works fine.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2012, 12:35:42 AM »
The sponsor debt system works fine even without a sponsor or an agenda.

But Your Story is clear when it says that Sponsored Magic is external to the character using it.

Offline Becq

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2012, 01:14:53 AM »
The sponsor debt system works fine even without a sponsor or an agenda.

But Your Story is clear when it says that Sponsored Magic is external to the character using it.
I agree completely.  It is workable as a completely internal system, akin to Lawbreaking in a way.  I'll even agree that it actually makes more sense to treak it as a corrupting influence rather than external manipulation.

But the OP wanted discuss how an externalized version would work, and what the agenda would be...

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2012, 01:52:09 AM »
Maybe it does.  You could claim that the Necromaner's own darker nature is the sponsor, similar to the way that Harry talks to and is sometimes at odds with his own subconscious.  So long as there is an opportunity for the character to go into hock to something with an agenda that will occasionally be at odds to his best interests the sponsor debt system works fine.

I like this interpretation. It feels right to me. At least more right than other so far. Unless we consider 'Death' to be a semi-aware conceptual spirit, rather than an actual spirit. Kind of like entropy, which is the natural state of energy, death is the natural state of life? Maybe throw in a little Cappadocian or Giavanni philosophy from Vampire: the Masquerade;

Kemmlerite Necromancy final agenda would be tearing the veil merging life and death the way to achieve this more and bigger necromancy.

There's plenty good ideals for a semi-aware conceptual spirit to latch onto.
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