Mortals with enchanted items?

[Sanctaphrax]

Being a practitioner isn't worth a Refresh. It's a free extra that people get along with other abilities.

Anyway...

Nothing should be strictly better than anything else. That's one of the most basic rules of balance.

In a number of non-contrived situations, your suggestion is strictly better than Ritual (Crafting). Which is a pretty good Power.

This is bad. There's really no arguing that.

[Haru]

Nothing should be strictly better than anything else. That's one of the most basic rules of balance.

Again I have to ask you: around what exactly do you want to balance those things?

In a number of non-contrived situations, your suggestion is strictly better than Ritual (Crafting).

You're saying that about a lot of things, and I just don't see it. Ritual gives you the same number of enchanted items, but
1) You can use them almost indefinitely, as long as you can spend mental stress to power them again
2) You can upgrade with focus items on additional refinement to get more bang for your bucks
3) Leave open a potion slot, and you can brew up a potion for the problem at hand, while the other guy is limited to what his magic-item-guy can get him

Yes, at low refresh levels, the contacts guy might have an advantage, but I don't think it is as big as you make it out to be. And at some point, the crafter is going to leave him in the dust. Both is "unbalanced". Or both is balanced. Or both just is. You will never get an absolute "1 refresh equals X power for a character", so as long as things are within non-game-breaking boundaries, I think everything is ok. And I do not see anything gamebreaking here.

[Sanctaphrax]

Again I have to ask you: around what exactly do you want to balance those things?

The sum total of the game's material.

Nothing else you can balance around, if you're doing it right.

1) You can use them almost indefinitely, as long as you can spend mental stress to power them again
2) You can upgrade with focus items on additional refinement to get more bang for your bucks
3) Leave open a potion slot, and you can brew up a potion for the problem at hand, while the other guy is limited to what his magic-item-guy can get him

1 is sometimes also true with your idea, since a character with it might be a practitioner.
2 is not always important, since many characters don't refine their abilities much.
3 is not in fact true. The potion Declaration thing is based on retroactively having made the potion, not around making it quickly. There's no reason that it should be impossible with your idea. Unless you want to make it so, in which case you should do so.

This all sort of beside the point though. The whole "better than Ritual (Crafting)" thing is just a way of illustrating that this is more powerful than 1 Refresh should be.

[Haru]

The sum total of the game's material.

Nothing else you can balance around, if you're doing it right.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't really tell me anything. I think I know what you mean, but still, how do you decide what is balanced and what is not? At the moment I feel your arguments to be rather arbitrary, which I am sure they are not, but I can't follow.

1 is sometimes also true with your idea, since a character with it might be a practitioner.
2 is not always important, since many characters don't refine their abilities much.
3 is not in fact true. The potion Declaration thing is based on retroactively having made the potion, not around making it quickly. There's no reason that it should be impossible with your idea. Unless you want to make it so, in which case you should do so.

1) This version is explicitly done for a character who is not a caster. If he where, he would have to have at least one casting power. This is for the adventurer who has a wizard friend who helps him fight the things that go bump at night. I would never allow the mental stress thing without the character being a practitioner of some sort, because I agree with you there, that would be too much.
2) See, that's what I meant above. Ritual(crafting) has the potential to provide extremely powerful enchanted items that leave even powerful evocators in the dust. Yet, somehow this "imbalance" is not important now.
At even 3 refresh put into a character like this, the contacts guy has 12 one use items. The crafter can have 4 effects with 3 uses each at this point (or less with more power). At 4 refresh, the crafter will definitely be ahead. Not to mention that carrying 16 enchanted item can be a bit much.
3) You're right, the potion declaration is probably possible for both. You can easily tell the contacts guy, that he has to get what he wants up front and limit his powers that way, but I think leaving a little room for creativity is a good thing. But that is not what I meant. The crafter can (as always with GM discretion) create something during the game that is needed. Maybe only enchant an aspect onto a sword to satisfy some obscure catch, maybe entirely different things. The Crafter is not limited to the objects he has created so far, he can actively work on more, especially if they are story relevant.

This all sort of beside the point though. The whole "better than Ritual (Crafting)" thing is just a way of illustrating that this is more powerful than 1 Refresh should be.

Then tell me, how powerful should it be for 1 refresh? Ok, that sounds more bitchy than it is meant, I really just want to know what you would be willing to grant for 1 refresh.
As far as I can tell, 4 predefined actions at a fixed level aren't all that powerful. The only thing that might be powerful are magic weapons, in this case it would be 4 weapon:4 items. But those will be depleted at one point as well, and you are in the same situation if you allow the character some actual handgranades, and he doesn't even have to pay those in refresh. And for maneuver or block spells (or even skill replacement spells), it is a regular stunt, only that it lets you do different things, not only one, but in return, you can only do it 4 times. And if you chose the wrong items for the task ahead, you won't even get that much.
Practitioners get the same benefit for this 1 refresh, except they can boost it even more, if they like.

[GryMor]

1 is sometimes also true with your idea, since a character with it might be a practitioner.

Practitioners start with at least one refresh worth of items. This alternative merely provides an explicit source for what would normally be hand waved ("Where did you get that coat?"). It's substantially weaker than just being a non crafting practitioner and getting your enchanted items from a crafting PC.

2 is not always important, since many characters don't refine their abilities much.

If it's not important than it's pointless to talk about Rituals (Craft). Your argument is equivalent to A is unbalanced as it's better than B when B isn't important. Additionally, enchanted items are a bit weak for a primary ability when they aren't boosted by craft specializations and foci.

This all sort of beside the point though. The whole "better than Ritual (Crafting)" thing is just a way of illustrating that this is more powerful than 1 Refresh should be.

Not really, it's about the same versatility as Channeling or Rituals (Which work out to -1 refresh each with a forced purchase of refinement for items) and the Channeler is MUCH more powerful, as they can put more power into their effects than their skill, without taking consequences and assuming 4 skill:
Channeler (4, 5, 6, 7) per scene
Enchanted Items (4, 4, 4, 4) per session

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't really tell me anything. I think I know what you mean, but still, how do you decide what is balanced and what is not? At the moment I feel your arguments to be rather arbitrary, which I am sure they are not, but I can't follow.

Sorry.

Honestly, there's no easy way to do it.

First, you have to memorize most of the ruleset, which is easier than it sounds but still not easy. Then look at what each new Power or Stunt offers and compare it to what's available. If it's significantly better or worse, it's not balanced.

(Either that or look things up obsessively.)

If that fails, break it down into number of shifts and look at how frequently those shifts can be used. See how many stunts it's worth. Then see if buying the effect with stunts would be optimal. Compare to other Powers and Stunts from there.

The problem with what you have here is that it offers the buy-in of Crafting for free. Making enchanted items costs 1 Refresh, then you buy enchanted items 4 at a time for 1 Refresh each. That's how Ritual (Crafting) works.

This lets you bypass that buy-in, so that you can just buy items. This is inferior for people with large amounts of Refresh that they wish to use on items, but superior for everyone else. Also, it lets you use whatever skill you please for free. Can't ignore that.

Being able to prepare four one-use stunts is pretty awesome, especially since enchanted items are less limited than stunts. I'd pick a coat that provides a (Contacts) block 4 (or 7 depending on how you read) times/session over any defensive stunt if my Athletics was low and my Contacts was peaked.

PS: You should really post a proper writeup for this Power. Without one, it's hard to tell exactly how some things are supposed to work. And generally, the process of statting things out fully forces me to write better. I think the same holds for other people, because Powers without full writeups are usually worse.
PPS: If I were writing this, I'd make a Contacts or Resources stunt that lets you obtain enchanted items with a roll at a difficulty set by the GM. Unreliability seems appropriate for an ability like this.

[Haru]

First, you have to memorize most of the ruleset, which is easier than it sounds but still not easy. Then look at what each new Power or Stunt offers and compare it to what's available. If it's significantly better or worse, it's not balanced.

(Either that or look things up obsessively.)

I usually do the latter until I reach the former, so we pretty much do the same, only to reach different conclusions.

If that fails, break it down into number of shifts and look at how frequently those shifts can be used. See how many stunts it's worth. Then see if buying the effect with stunts would be optimal. Compare to other Powers and Stunts from there.

I usually try to break bigger powers down into 1 shift powers to help me understand them. It is not always possible, and often enough, a 3 refresh power is worth more than 3 1 refresh powers. Evocation for example gives you significantly more than Channeling + Refinement. Channeling on the other hand is exactly worth 2 refinements, 1 for the element, 1 for the items.

You should really post a proper writeup for this Power.

How does that sound:

Bag of Tricks [-1]
Description:
You are not a wizard (or are but unable or unwilling to create magical items), but know someone who can provide you with a few magical trinkets for you to use.
Skills affected: Contacts
Effects:
Enchanted items:
You gain 4 enchanted items, each at a power equal to your contacts skill. These enchanted items can each store one action that can usually be stored in an enchanted item. Bonuses to crafting never apply to these items. Each item can only be used once per session, no exceptions. Using any of these items counts as an action in a conflict. You must decide the spell embedded into the items when taking the power. You can switch out these spells at any milestone (if you can get to your source at that particular moment).

Bigger bag [-1]
Description:
 You have a few more items in your bag of tricks.
 Musts:
 You must have the Bag of Tricks power above.
Effects:
More trinkets:
 You gain 4 additional enchanted items.

First, this limits the power to 8 items for 2 refresh, more would definitely be pushing it. Second, it should be absolutely clear, that the power of those items is limited to the value of the skill. If anything is left unclear,

Now there can be different versions for multiple skills:

Bag of Tricks [-1]
Description:
You know where to buy a few magical trinkets for you to use.
Skills affected: Ressources

Bag of Tricks [-1]
Description:
You know where you can steal a few magical trinkets for you to use.
Skills affected: Burglary

And so on.

The problem with what you have here is that it offers the buy-in of Crafting for free. Making enchanted items costs 1 Refresh, then you buy enchanted items 4 at a time for 1 Refresh each. That's how Ritual (Crafting) works.

Like I said before, I see a value in crafting over only enchanted items that makes up for the 1 refresh it costs more.

This lets you bypass that buy-in, so that you can just buy items. This is inferior for people with large amounts of Refresh that they wish to use on items, but superior for everyone else. Also, it lets you use whatever skill you please for free. Can't ignore that.

Yes, that's precisely the point. It is meant for a mortal that wants a little edge, nothing more. If it makes you feel better, I can add a requirement, that the character may not take up any other powers along with this one, so it really only fits this little niche.

I don't see the part about using another skill as not that important here, since it is a "power", not a stunt, they can be a bit more flexible. I said it somewhere before, if it fits a character, I would let a player take evocation with 3 entirely different skills, as long as I can see that it is not intended to be for minmax purposes only, but rather because it fits the character better.

Being able to prepare four one-use stunts is pretty awesome, especially since enchanted items are less limited than stunts. I'd pick a coat that provides a (Contacts) block 4 (or 7 depending on how you read) times/session over any defensive stunt if my Athletics was low and my Contacts was peaked.

Sure, you can do that, you would get 4 contacts blocks (lets even make them work reactively) for 1 refresh. You could also take a stunt that lets you use contacts as your goto dodge skill (well... ok, contacts might be a bit iffy here, I admit, but lets stay with it for now). With the stunt you can use your contacts skill indefinitely, and you can boost it with aspects if need be. A block from an enchanted item is always at a fixed value.

Also, you can get supernatural toughness with the right catch for 1 refresh, which may even be better then stunt and items combined. And remember that items are always susceptible to the old "take them away" tactic, while stunts are not.

How do you get to 7 uses?

If I were writing this, I'd make a Contacts or Resources stunt that lets you obtain enchanted items with a roll at a difficulty set by the GM. Unreliability seems appropriate for an ability like this.

I would always treat this as a power, since the character concept is based on the supernatural. And if the skill is high enough, there should be no problem in pretty much always getting the desired item. Randomness is well and good, but not if a characters high concept is depending on it.
If you really want to, you can play out the "reload" of the items, when the character is getting fresh trinkets, and his wizard friend doesn't exactly have in stock what he is demanding. Can also be a great source for compels ("You know, I couldn't finish that flash stick I promised you, but try this here, it should more than make up for it." And you hand the character a trinket of unknown properties and the player a fate point. Somehow that wizard looks like Q in my mind right now.). Actually, it is a great source for compels, which I know we have different opinions about, but I really consider this a good thing.

How would you feel about a wizard + adventurer tag team, where the wizard is mainly creating enchanted items for the adventurer to use? In that scenario, the entire burden of refresh would sit on the wizards shoulders, while the adventurer could still benefit from the enchanted items. My power simply moves the wizard into the role of an NPC and shifts the costs to the actual character.

[Sanctaphrax]

Bag of Tricks [-1]
Description:
You are not a wizard (or are but unable or unwilling to create magical items), but know someone who can provide you with a few magical trinkets for you to use.
Skills affected: Contacts
Effects:
Enchanted items:
You gain 4 enchanted items, each at a power equal to your contacts skill. These enchanted items can each store one action that can usually be stored in an enchanted item. Bonuses to crafting never apply to these items. Each item can only be used once per session, no exceptions. Using any of these items counts as an action in a conflict. You must decide the spell embedded into the items when taking the power. You can switch out these spells at any milestone (if you can get to your source at that particular moment).

Bigger bag [-1]
Description:
 You have a few more items in your bag of tricks.
 Musts:
 You must have the Bag of Tricks power above.
Effects:
More trinkets:
 You gain 4 additional enchanted items.

First, this limits the power to 8 items for 2 refresh, more would definitely be pushing it. Second, it should be absolutely clear, that the power of those items is limited to the value of the skill. If anything is left unclear,

Now there can be different versions for multiple skills:

Bag of Tricks [-1]
Description:
You know where to buy a few magical trinkets for you to use.
Skills affected: Ressources

Bag of Tricks [-1]
Description:
You know where you can steal a few magical trinkets for you to use.
Skills affected: Burglary

This is a substantial improvement. You've fixed a number of fairly serious problems. I could quibble about the wording, but whatever.

That aside, there's no need for the multiple Powers. Just make one with multiple usable skills.

Yes, that's precisely the point. It is meant for a mortal that wants a little edge, nothing more. If it makes you feel better, I can add a requirement, that the character may not take up any other powers along with this one, so it really only fits this little niche.

It shouldn't be strictly better for anyone.

Fortunately, it no longer is.

No need to prevent Changelings from borrowing items.

I don't see the part about using another skill as not that important here, since it is a "power", not a stunt, they can be a bit more flexible. I said it somewhere before, if it fits a character, I would let a player take evocation with 3 entirely different skills, as long as I can see that it is not intended to be for minmax purposes only, but rather because it fits the character better.

As a general rule, if you have to specify "as long as nobody is trying to munchkin" it means that your rules are bad and should be fixed.

You could also take a stunt that lets you use contacts as your goto dodge skill...

No you couldn't. That would be unfair.

I used to allow this sort of nonsense, then realized that it was nonsense. See the Cleaning Up The Stunt List thread for more details.

I would always treat this as a power, since the character concept is based on the supernatural. And if the skill is high enough, there should be no problem in pretty much always getting the desired item. Randomness is well and good, but not if a characters high concept is depending on it.

Finely Tuned Third Eye is supernatural too, but it's not a Power.

In fact, it's more supernatural. A character using this Power might well have no magical abilities whatsoever, whereas Finely Tuned Third Eye boosts an extranormal competency.

So if this is weak enough, it could totally be a stunt.

And randomness in someone's basic concept is part of the game. Even a super-rich man can fail to buy something if he rolls badly.

How would you feel about a wizard + adventurer tag team, where the wizard is mainly creating enchanted items for the adventurer to use? In that scenario, the entire burden of refresh would sit on the wizards shoulders, while the adventurer could still benefit from the enchanted items. My power simply moves the wizard into the role of an NPC and shifts the costs to the actual character.

I'd be fine with it.

Thing is, your power doesn't actually shift all of the costs onto the actual character. It only shifts some of them. It now only shifts some of the effects, though, so that's okay.

PS: You can spend an enchanted item slot to give an item two extra uses. That's how I got 7 uses.

[Haru]

This is a substantial improvement. You've fixed a number of fairly serious problems. I could quibble about the wording, but whatever.

Quibble away, if we make it an "official" power, we might as well make it as good as possible. And while I consider my English to be decent enough, I am no native speaker, so some things might be lost in translation anyway.

That aside, there's no need for the multiple Powers. Just make one with multiple usable skills.

Yeah, but I thought it would be clearer if I did it like this for now. I especially wanted to make it clear that you have one source and not multiple, so you don't base one item on contacts, the next on resources, etc.
Which is probably only interesting for compel reasons, but still.

It shouldn't be strictly better for anyone.

Fortunately, it no longer is.

No need to prevent Changelings from borrowing items.

We'll, good then. But it was not about if it is better for one character or not, it is just that I think of this power as fitting only a very narrow type of character, specifically those without any powers of their own.

As a general rule, if you have to specify "as long as nobody is trying to munchkin" it means that your rules are bad and should be fixed.

If you make something munchkin proof, somebody is going to create a better munchkin. I regard the discussion between GM and player as a big part of the process of creating balanced powers and characters. That does not mean that powers in themselves can be all over the place, I just don't value their inherent balance as much as you seem to do.

No you couldn't. That would be unfair.

I used to allow this sort of nonsense, then realized that it was nonsense. See the Cleaning Up The Stunt List thread for more details.

Like I said, contacts might be stretching it as a stunt, but maybe someone out there has an idea of how to make it work. I would be careful in allowing a character to concentrate only on 1 skill, but if he can reasonably shift one trapping to an unusual skill, more power to him.
Maybe not as a stunt but as a power, I could see this work for an ectomancer who is protected by ghosts.

Finely Tuned Third Eye is supernatural too, but it's not a Power.

In fact, it's more supernatural. A character using this Power might well have no magical abilities whatsoever, whereas Finely Tuned Third Eye boosts an extranormal competency.

Yes... and no. It is not a supernatural power, it is the sense that makes the hair on your neck stand up when a ghost passes through you, or you are shaking the hand of a changeling. It is a sort of empathy for supernatural beings, it is feeling that there is something off, it is not the sight or wizards senses or anything like that. The stunt even states the "pure mortal" part.

At least I would not take Finely Tunes Third Eye as a reason to take away someones pure mortal status, while bag of tricks most certainly does.

I could see making the enchanted items only work as maneuver spells, which would probably be enough of a restriction to make it a stunt, what do you think? It would allow you to put up a variety of aspects with contacts, but they would still require an action to set up, so the conflict economy would be intact.

And randomness in someone's basic concept is part of the game. Even a super-rich man can fail to buy something if he rolls badly.

I'd be fine with it.

I'd see it more like making him roll to see if he is allowed to roll. Things like windfall don't take a roll, they just happen. A wizard will always be able to cast a spell, but it is not clear if he will do so successful. The same goes here. Also, depending on how high the skill, he might be able to get much more than 4 uses out of the power.

Thing is, your power doesn't actually shift all of the costs onto the actual character. It only shifts some of them. It now only shifts some of the effects, though, so that's okay.

PS: You can spend an enchanted item slot to give an item two extra uses. That's how I got 7 uses.

Look at that. I always thought it would be 1 extra use, so not much more than merging 2 enchanted item slots. That is good to know, thank you.

[Becq]

Wall of Lawyers (Contacts) -- You have a vast team of lawyers on retainer, and they are willing to take bullets for you (literally!)  When dodging attacks, you may use your Contacts skill in place of your Athletics.

_{(And yes, this meant to be a joke.)}

[Sanctaphrax]

Quibble away, if we make it an "official" power, we might as well make it as good as possible. And while I consider my English to be decent enough, I am no native speaker, so some things might be lost in translation anyway.

Aight, I'll post a rewording later.

We'll, good then. But it was not about if it is better for one character or not, it is just that I think of this power as fitting only a very narrow type of character, specifically those without any powers of their own.

No need to restrict it so. Nothing about the Power is unsuitable to a character with other Powers.

If you make something munchkin proof, somebody is going to create a better munchkin. I regard the discussion between GM and player as a big part of the process of creating balanced powers and characters. That does not mean that powers in themselves can be all over the place, I just don't value their inherent balance as much as you seem to do.

It's hard to make something munchkin-proof. I've never seen an rpg that managed it without being unbelievably simple. But a lack of munchkin-proof-ness is a flaw nonetheless.

In a similar manner, it's hard to make a system that confuses nobody. But it's still a red flag if a designer says "the way it's written is fine, as long as nobody is dumb enough to misinterpret it".

When you say "as long as nobody's trying to twink" you accept a flaw in your design. You should not do that. You should try to fix your design.

If you really can't fix it, write a GM discretion clause. Which is sort of like fixing it, though it's a pretty lame fix.

On a related note, munchkins are players too. The way they play is not badwrong. You should, if at all possible, make the game fun for them and the groups they play with too.

Like I said, contacts might be stretching it as a stunt, but maybe someone out there has an idea of how to make it work. I would be careful in allowing a character to concentrate only on 1 skill, but if he can reasonably shift one trapping to an unusual skill, more power to him.
Maybe not as a stunt but as a power, I could see this work for an ectomancer who is protected by ghosts.

A year ago, I would have agreed. But experience has taught me not to accept that nonsense.

Moving Athletics defence is just too powerful an effect for a stunt.

Fists-level defence is okay, though. A stunt letting you defend with Contacts would need a restriction like "when my minions are present" or "against the attacks of people I know".

Consider that Footwork is a strong stunt, and it should become clear that a stunt that utterly trumps it is too good.

At least I would not take Finely Tunes Third Eye as a reason to take away someones pure mortal status, while bag of tricks most certainly does.

Only because it's too powerful.

If it were weak enough, bag of tricks could be a stunt.

I could see making the enchanted items only work as maneuver spells, which would probably be enough of a restriction to make it a stunt, what do you think? It would allow you to put up a variety of aspects with contacts, but they would still require an action to set up, so the conflict economy would be intact.

Eh, maybe.

I'd see it more like making him roll to see if he is allowed to roll. Things like windfall don't take a roll, they just happen. A wizard will always be able to cast a spell, but it is not clear if he will do so successful. The same goes here. Also, depending on how high the skill, he might be able to get much more than 4 uses out of the power.

You can always attempt to obtain an item, you won't always succeed.

The ability that my proposed stunt would grant is not "have enchanted items". It's "acquire enchanted items".

Look at that. I always thought it would be 1 extra use, so not much more than merging 2 enchanted item slots. That is good to know, thank you.

You're very welcome.

[Sanctaphrax]

Here's how I'd word it.

This got easier when I realized that I could shed a lot of complexity without affecting functionality by limiting the Power to potions.

BAG OF TRICKS [-1]
Description: For whatever reason, you have access to a few minor magical trinkets.
Skills affected: Contacts, Resources, Burglary, Lore.
Effects:
Enchanted items: You have four potions, each with a strength equal to your Contacts, Resources, Burglary, or Lore skill. You may not increase their strength in any way. At the beginning of each session, you must declare which potions you have on hand.
More Trinkets [-1]. You have four additional potions.

If this is in any way unclear or inelegant, please say so.

[UmbraLux]

I suggest allowing declared trinkets under the "More Trinkets" category.

[Sanctaphrax]

Any particular reason?

[UmbraLux]

Adds flexibility, makes the second refresh more worthwhile, and reduces accounting.  Could probably come up with more reasons but it's just a suggestion.