The Catch Rewrite

[Becq]

It's not a bad system Becq, but how does that work with immunity (which has only one level that costs 8 refresh) and the stacked catch?

Ah, PI -- I hadn't really had that in mind when writing my previous post, and I agree with Sanctaphrax that is needs to be handled a bit differently.

But as a first cut, here are some thoughts:

First, Physical Immunity should probably be separated (at least conceptually) into two powers.  Full Physical Immunity is the default setting of the power, and represents immunity to everything that isn't The Catch.  It's basically the next level of Toughness beyond Mythic; as such, it should count as four levels of Toughness/Recovery powers for purposes of the rebate (one level per two refresh).

Specific Physical Immunity is immunity only to a specific subset of attack types, and is what you get when you add a Stacked Catch to Physical Immunity.  The normal Catch doesn't apply, so it counts as zero levels for purposes of the Catch rebate, but should have a cost reduction based on how commonly it offers protection from attacks.

Perhaps Specific Physical Immunity should be priced something like this:
Common PI: A significant number of opponents will be at a disadvantage against the character.  Cost: -4
Uncommon PI: An opponent or two per fight or a hostile group or two per session will be at a disadvantage against the character, or a larger number will be inconvenienced.  Cost -2.
Rare PI: Perhaps as few as several opponents per campaign will be at a disadvantage, or a larger number will be inconvenienced.  Cost -1.

For purposes of the above, assume an opponent is 'disadvantaged' if they are unable to hurt the character at all (because they either don't have an alternate attack or are unlikely to realize that an alternate attack would improve things), and that an opponent is 'inconvenienced' if they are able to bypass the PI, and can quickly recognize the need to, but with significantly inferior attacks.  Also note that if the number of opponents that are disadvantaged even begins to approach a majority, then the character should probably be buying Full Physical Immunity (possibly with a serious Catch) rather than Specific Physical Immunity.

This may well need significant adjustment.

[ways and means]

So immunity to magic would be 2 because it isn't common in game terms but you would expect 1 or 2 opponents per fight to have it?

[Becq]

Using Beq model it seems to work a lot better at higher toughness levels than lower where a lot of the categories are the same.

True, but then again there is only so much room for varying costs unless you start using half-refresh increments.  If you only have two refresh worth of powers, you can only ever pay 0, 1, or 2.  I consider the '0' option to not be an option, so that leaves half price or full price.  I dealt with this by staggering the half price levels, but if you have a better idea, I'm happy to hear it!

My biggest problem with the method is that it really overprices selective toughness (only vs a certain thing) which I think does deserve a more than 50% rebate.

A fair point.  Hard to do without making some of the levels free, though, and I'm not fond of that idea.

One option is to rely on compels to fix this issue.

As another option, you might grant 'Specific Toughness' an additional bonus.  Perhaps it grants an additional point of armor over the normal amount (but still the same number of stress boxes).  So "Supernatural Toughness vs Fire" would give you armor:3 and +4 stress boxes, but only against fire-based damage (and would cost only -2 refresh due to the severe Catch of 'not fire').

[Becq]

So immunity to magic would be 2 because it isn't common in game terms but you would expect 1 or 2 opponents per fight to have it?

You need to be a little careful here, because it's not just the presence of the damage type that matters, but that an alternative damage type is either unavailable or inferior.  Which would probably be true for a spellcaster, as their alternate attacks will generally be weaker than their magic.

So if PI (catch:bullets) run -4 refresh, then PI (magic only) should probably run around -2.  I think.

Feel free to disagree constructively, though... 

[sinker]

Specific Physical Immunity is immunity only to a specific subset of attack types, and is what you get when you add a Stacked Catch to Physical Immunity.  The normal Catch doesn't apply, so it counts as zero levels for purposes of the Catch rebate, but should have a cost reduction based on how commonly it offers protection from attacks.

Perhaps Specific Physical Immunity should be priced something like this:
Common PI: A significant number of opponents will be at a disadvantage against the character.  Cost: -4
Uncommon PI: An opponent or two per fight or a hostile group or two per session will be at a disadvantage against the character, or a larger number will be inconvenienced.  Cost -2.
Rare PI: Perhaps as few as several opponents per campaign will be at a disadvantage, or a larger number will be inconvenienced.  Cost -1.

For purposes of the above, assume an opponent is 'disadvantaged' if they are unable to hurt the character at all (because they either don't have an alternate attack or are unlikely to realize that an alternate attack would improve things), and that an opponent is 'inconvenienced' if they are able to bypass the PI, and can quickly recognize the need to, but with significantly inferior attacks.  Also note that if the number of opponents that are disadvantaged even begins to approach a majority, then the character should probably be buying Full Physical Immunity (possibly with a serious Catch) rather than Specific Physical Immunity.

Hmm. I'm having issues with this, but I'm not sure why here and not with toughness.

I could not have done this with the last character I made with PI. I was making an outsider scion and gave him immunity to magic (cause it makes sense story-wise and I thought it was cool). I had no way of knowing how often the GM would involve magic. Looking back on the game I can tell you that it came up somewhere between 0 and 2 times a session (mostly due to friendly fire) and the GM had actually planned an outsider themed campaign, but I didn't know any of this. How are we to cost things if we have no idea how often they will come up?

Still not sure why I see this as an issue with PI and not with toughness, but there you go.

[Silverblaze]

I'm in favor of a rewire of Physical immunity.

Call it Immunity. 

have a table set up as a guideline for it.

This is a sliding scale that I put little thought into it coul;d be easily amended to work better.  I just needed an example.

-1 Fatigue from running/flying, aging (including age based attacks)
-2 attacks from children, attacks from normal animals
-3 a set of attacks (bullets, claws, fists, melee weapons, man made weapons, explosions, mortal magic, non mortal magic, disease or insanity [ listed here since it has low usefulness)
-4 an entire element or phenomenon (fire, ice, poison, earthquakes, drowning???, mental damage, radiation)
-5 broad elements or attack types (attacks from bipedal creatures, any and all magic, attacks from transformed creatures)
-6 physical attacks or mental attacks
-7?
-8 immune to everything

Then include a + 0 catch for things with an immunity of 6 or above.

[Sanctaphrax]

PI just shouldn't cost -8.

Would you call Supernatural Toughness and Recovery a bad investment? Do they not provide 8 Refresh worth of badassery together?

If you wouldn't, then how can you justify the existence of a Power that makes them look like crap for the exact same cost?

PI should be a lot pricier, and it should benefit more from Catches than other Powers do. Immunity to fire is probably fine for 2 Refresh. Immunity to everything that isn't iron for 5 Refresh isn't all that bad. But immunity to everything for 8 Refresh isn't fair at all.

[Silverblaze]

PI just shouldn't cost -8.

Would you call Supernatural Toughness and Recovery a bad investment? Do they not provide 8 Refresh worth of badassery together?

If you wouldn't, then how can you justify the existence of a Power that makes them look like crap for the exact same cost?

PI should be a lot pricier, and it should benefit more from Catches than other Powers do. Immunity to fire is probably fine for 2 Refresh. Immunity to everything that isn't iron for 5 Refresh isn't all that bad. But immunity to everything for 8 Refresh isn't fair at all.

The -8 -  I proposed was immune to mental and social damage as well.  everything.  literally.  except a +0 catch.

Lemme clarify a bit.

First: Toughness and recovery has a catch.  it could cost 4 for the same effect you mentioned.

Second: Immunity: should have no catch.  It should not be a toughness power.  It should be seperate.  Do not think of it as immunity to everything but (a catch of everythign else)

Think of it as a cost to be immune to something.

My cost table was simply a preliminary.  If you want to criticize, please offer an alternate cost?    -12 for full immunity perhaps? 

Whatever, I just offered a simple solution with baselines. 

[ways and means]

PI just shouldn't cost -8.

Would you call Supernatural Toughness and Recovery a bad investment? Do they not provide 8 Refresh worth of badassery together?

If you wouldn't, then how can you justify the existence of a Power that makes them look like crap for the exact same cost?

PI should be a lot pricier, and it should benefit more from Catches than other Powers do. Immunity to fire is probably fine for 2 Refresh. Immunity to everything that isn't iron for 5 Refresh isn't all that bad. But immunity to everything for 8 Refresh isn't fair at all.

Honestly not really, Toughness is worth it (unless mental or social combat are as common as physical) but supernatural recovery is comparatively mediocre (assuming its not being used to power crazy rituals). Spending 8 refresh on Supernatural Toughness + Recovery pales in comparison to 8 points of refinement or even spending 4 points of toughness and 4 points of refinement.

[Becq]

Just to clarify:

I agree with Sanctaphrax (and others) that PI is underpriced compared to toughness and recovery.  The ideas I posted were intended less to balance or rewrite PI, and more to balance the Catch as applied to various powers including PI.

In general, I don't think PI is a suitable power for player characters, with the possible exception of narrowly-focused immunities (what I referred to as 'Specific Physical Immunity').  It's basically a plot device power, which makes it great for NPCs (ie, the storyline revolves around figuring out how to take down the bad guy who can't be hurt by any obvious means).  But not so much for PCs.  Why?  Because even at it's most 'fair', this would come down to the GM rolling dice to determine if the enemy happens to knows or is able to figure out the player's weakness.  And then what happens when a vindictive enemy posts (accurately) on badguyforums.net that Joe the Scion's +0 Catch is that he is vulnerable to wooden clubs carved by virgins from maple wood and coated with melted gummy bears?  None of this strikes me as fun.

This bias on my part was what led me to overlook PI for purposes of my Catch proposal to begin with.  (After all, pricing the powers high or low by a handful of refresh on an NPC has almost no effect compared to doing the same for a PC.)

[Sanctaphrax]

@Silverblaze: I seem to have misinterpreted your proposal completely. My apologies. Could you explain it a bit further please?

@ways and means: Okay, make it Mythic Toughness and Inhuman Recovery. I personally think Recovery is awesome, but really it's beside the point.

@Becq: Indeed, broad PI generally isn't a very fun power for PCs. But its cost should still be written with PCs in mind, because PCs are the only people that it matters for.

Besides, narrow PI is totally PC-appropriate. If a pyromancer wants to be fireproof so as to drop zone attacks on himself without hesitation, I say more power to him.

[sinker]

In general, I don't think PI is a suitable power for player characters, with the possible exception of narrowly-focused immunities (what I referred to as 'Specific Physical Immunity').  It's basically a plot device power, which makes it great for NPCs (ie, the storyline revolves around figuring out how to take down the bad guy who can't be hurt by any obvious means).  But not so much for PCs.

I agree, but what I see is a lot of proposed solutions that make PI less accessable for the right uses. I don't even see a benefit to changing it. Currently it's available when it's appropriate, and when inappropriate, the GM should be vetoing it. I don't have any problem with a system that relies on the GM to remain viable.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't have any problem with a system that relies on the GM to remain viable.

In other words, you don't care about game balance.

That's fine, since balance isn't really necessary, but please understand that it's not helpful right now.

"The GM should veto it when it's not appropriate" can cover for literally anything. No matter how broken it is.

"+4 to all skills for 1 Refresh? Not broken, GM can just not let it be taken by anything less than a god."

PS: This sort of thing is often referred to as the Oberoni Fallacy. You can see an explanation of it here.
PPS: I usually measure the badness of a balance problem on two scales. First one is, how much trouble does it cause? The second one is, how hard is it to fix? If you have to fix anything, the thing is on this scale and therefore a problem.

[Silverblaze]

@Silverblaze: I seem to have misinterpreted your proposal completely. My apologies. Could you explain it a bit further please?

@ways and means: Okay, make it Mythic Toughness and Inhuman Recovery. I personally think Recovery is awesome, but really it's beside the point.

@Becq: Indeed, broad PI generally isn't a very fun power for PCs. But its cost should still be written with PCs in mind, because PCs are the only people that it matters for.

Besides, narrow PI is totally PC-appropriate. If a pyromancer wants to be fireproof so as to drop zone attacks on himself without hesitation, I say more power to him.

I will explain more later.  Likely in a new post about a new power called immunity.  At present I am using a phone for this.  Will do so later today or monday.  My proposal is to make a new power that is not under the category of toughness at all.

[sinker]

@Sancta: You do realize that PI is specifically intended for NPCs, and having a player take it is the exception.

The Mythic
level is nearly always reserved for potent NPCs,
as is the special Physical Immunity ability.

So the natural state of this power is for the GM to veto it.