PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.

[Elegast]

Why then would it not look like a fetch under glamour-breaking ointmentovision ?

Because it's a massively strong and old fetch. We have already some exemples of anti-magic: in Summer Knight, in Heorot. The main reason I believe the Scarecrow to have Outsider power is that I don't understand why Mab kidnapped Molly. I was sure it was to punish the vampires, but then the WOJ came...

[Thork]

Hrm, here's an idea:

What if Mab sent the Fetches to home in on Molly's magic -- precisely in order to make Harry *focus* on Molly's black magic, so that he could intervene early, before it sent her (and, with her, him, because he'd probably die defending her) off the deep end into severe warlockry and the sharp side of Morgan's chopper.

Mab's goal would just be "make Harry take Winter Knight" all along, but the Black Council is screwing that up by trying to seduce Molly to the dark side (for all the above reasons), which would make Harry implode because he's Harry. So Mab (with foreknowledge) moves to really ATTRACT Harry's attention to Molly's dark practice by sending Fetches at the victims and then snatching Molly so that she can try to trade her for the Winter Knight job.


Think about what would have happened if the fetches hadn't attacked. Harry would have left the convention and might not have ever investigated those goings-on enough to realize Molly was turning dark, not until she'd gone much much farther down the left hand path. The fetches don't make sense as a distraction, but they do make sense as a "hey, look at me!"

[Elegast]

snatching Molly so that she can try to trade her for the Winter Knight job.

I don't believe Mab is interested in a knight who took the job through blackmail. If that was the case there was no need to kidnapp Molly: she coud have tortured Harry until he accepts the job. Or kidnapped Murphy in Summer Knight.

[Thork]

I don't believe Mab is interested in a knight who took the job through blackmail. If that was the case there was no need to kidnapp Harry: she coud have tortured him until he accepts the job. Or kidnapped Murphy in Summer Knight.

Oh, she's blackmailing Harry in one sense or another from the moment she forces that letter opener through his hand. In this scenario, that particular blackmail would just have been an opportunity to do business, as it were, like Lea picking up Amorrachius.

[Elegast]

Oh, she's blackmailing Harry in one sense or another from the moment she forces that letter opener through his hand.

Yes. But she's just making sure Harry pays his debt. Not kidnapping someone to force him to take more. I feel that if Mab was in the business of kidnapping people to get new debt, the WC woud try to stop her. Now you may say that she's too strong. In fact I'm sure that an alliance between the WC and Summer would be devastating for Winter.

[Thork]

Edit: Alternate Theory:

“Whoever called up these phages,” I said, “needed a way to guide them from the Nevernever to the physical world. They needed a beacon, someone who would resonate with a sympathetic vibe. Someone who, like the phages, wanted to make people feel fear.”

Butcher, Jim (2007-02-06). Proven Guilty (The Dresden Files, Book (p. 270). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Lea sent the phages after Molly. We know from as early as Grave Peril that Lea wants Molly; she asks Michael Carpenter for his eldest child. She's high up in Winter and might reasonably be able to command fetches, as Mab's handmaiden and highest servitor.

The "Attack" on Arctis Tor was actually Lea with the Athame (and the Black Council?) attempting to rebel against Mab. Sure, that happened at least more than a year before (prior to Dead Beat, since Lea's imprisoned then) , but what's time in the NeverNever? Mab conquered the attack all on her ownsome, so no probs.

Of course this theory has the problem that Lea was imprisoned at the time, but perhaps she'd given standing orders to the fetches?

Hrm. Perhaps Lea had a standing bargain or deal of some kind that forced Mab to send the fetches.

Yes. But she's just making sure Harry pays his debt. Not kidnapping someone to force him to take more. I feel that if Mab was in the business of kidnapping people to get new debt, the WC woud try to stop her. Now you may say that she's too strong. In fact I'm sure that an alliance between the WC and Summer would be devastating for Winter.

Yeah, but the WC isn't going to rush to defend a budding warlock ! That just makes it fit even more! Molly's no longer an innocent, so nobody's going to defend her .. . except Harry. Or, well, her dad, and his cold iron magic supersword, so maybe this wasn't a perfect plan on her part after all . . . or maybe she planned on trading for the Sword. . .

[Elegast]

The "Attack" on Arctis Tor was actually Lea with the Athame (and the Black Council?) attempting to rebel against Mab. Sure, that happened at least more than a year before (prior to Dead Beat, since Lea's imprisoned then) , but what's time in the NeverNever? Mab conquered the attack all on her ownsome, so no probs.

She has been trapped in the garden for years, and it was still smelling of sulfure at the broken gate. That doesn't seem to fit the timeframe.

EDIT: frankly, I find it maddening that after so many years, we still don't understand why Mab kidnapped Molly.

[Elegast]

Edit: Alternate Theory:

Lea sent the phages after Molly. We know from as early as Grave Peril that Lea wants Molly; she asks Michael Carpenter for his eldest child. She's high up in Winter and might reasonably be able to command fetches, as Mab's handmaiden and highest servitor.

Or maybe Maeve sends the phage after Molly in order to make her plan work. But then why is Artis Tor defenseless?

[Thork]

She has been trapped in the garden for years, and it was still smelling of sulfure at the broken gate. That doesn't seem to fit the timeframe.

EDIT: frankly, I find it maddening that after so many years, we still don't understand why Mab kidnapped Molly.

As to the first, it's the NeverNever. Theoretically the fight at Arctis Tor could've happened a hundred years prior to the start of the series.

I expect we'll find out more in Cold Days.

[Elegast]

There are still a number of questions about PG that I've never seen any good discussion of, much less answers for. Who goes back and locks up Pell's theater for him while he's in the hospital?

I had forgotten that:

I caught my breath a little, and asked, “Anything at Pell’s theater?”

Murphy nodded and crossed the room to pick up two of the candles. “A lot of nothing. Place was locked up tight. Chains on the front doors, and the back door was locked. Sign on the door said they were closed until further notice.”

I grunted. “You’d think Pell would be wild to have the place open, if the convention was providing a significant amount of his income—even if he was in a hospital bed. Hell, especially if he was in a hospital bed.”

“Unless he doesn’t have anyone he trusts to run it for him.”

“But he does have someone he trusts enough to lock it up?” I said. “That doesn’t track. Pell sure as hell didn’t lock up after he was attacked.”

Murphy frowned, but she didn’t disagree with me. “I tried to call him to ask him about it, but the nurse said he was sleeping.”

And then Pell's theater is used as a door by the fetches. Two likely suspects:

• Marling
• the jann

[TheCuriousFan]

As to the first, it's the NeverNever. Theoretically the fight at Arctis Tor could've happened a hundred years prior to the start of the series.

I expect we'll find out more in Cold Days.

Time isn't THAT screwy in the NN, even if it happened a year before PG, it would have been cleaned up by then. And the smell of Hellfire would probably be gone in half a day, tops.

[Thork]

Time isn't THAT screwy in the NN, even if it happened a year before PG, it would have been cleaned up by then. And the smell of Hellfire would probably be gone in half a day, tops.

Harry actually says specifically otherwise:

“It must have been weeks,” Thomas said. “It takes that long for bones to get this clean.” “It’s all relative,” I said. “Time can pass at different rates in Faerie. These bones could have fallen a thousand years ago, by the local clock. Or twenty minutes ago.”

[TheCuriousFan]

Harry actually says specifically otherwise:

Noted, so time isn't even consistent if you stay in the one place in the NN.....

[Thork]

Noted, so time isn't even consistent if you stay in the one place in the NN.....

Yeah, especially at Arctis Tor. It's implied (but not proven) that Maeve, working with Lily, altered the timeflow while they were going through, but who knows what it was before they arrived; Mab could've been holding the whole place in stasis relative to Harry's Prime Material Plane for the whole past year. Or the Hellfire attack could've taken place just minutes before he arrived, relative to the real world.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Because it's a massively strong and old fetch.

Why would that make a difference ?  Glamour-breaking ointment appears to be qualitative rather than quantitative in effect, sfaict.

We have already some exemples of anti-magic: in Summer Knight, in Heorot.

My post quoted at the start of the thread makes the distinction between resistance and immunity, and I hold to that logic; we see resistance from beings old and strong enough to bull through magic, and immunity from Lord R that is specifically identified by Harry as Outsider-backed, and the description of the fetch fits the latter.