[spoilers for PG] I think Harry Fixed Little Chicago

[SerScot]

This is the best thread concerning the "Time-traveling Harry fixed Little Chicago" theory. Great summary by Knnn in this answer. The [main] alternative explanation, Mab fixed it, is presented in those threads: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS) and Mab, Little Chicago, and Demon Reach.
-Elegast

Ms. Duck,

Dear SerScot
   Let me make a suggestion. You cannot logically prove ‘Harry is a time traveler’ but disproving ‘Mab fixed it.’ Any more than you can prove ‘there is a silver teapot in solar orbit’ by disproving ‘the existence of invisible pink unicorns.’ The two are separate, standalone ideas, and you can only prove an idea by coming up with evidence for it and testing it.

Let me restate what I've said as my rational:

Ms. Duck.

I'm applying Occam's razor.  Harry fixing Little Chicago is the simpler explaination.  Here's why I believe that it is simpler: Mr. Butcher says Harry will break all of the laws of magic.  There is speculation (Bob, Harry, and the Gatekeeper) about time travel at the start of PG.  Harry knows about the flaw in little Chicago and has the highest motivation foe seeing it repaired (he doesn't want to die).  Further, Harry has the highest chance of getting into thw apartment and fixing the problem without being noticed by anyone because it is his apartment.  He knows the wards, he has a key, and no one would be surprised to see him enter or leave.

I sincerely believe it was Harry.  Were others (perhaps Mab) involved giving rise to the "evidence" you could cite?  Perhaps.  But as other's have pointed out faries never do favors without favors in return.  Harry was already in Mab's debt.  She, based on Harry's conversation with Lea in GS, can't help Harry withou Harry incurring greater debt.  To our knowledge that hasn't happened.

Harry fixed Little Chicago, not Mab.

I said this in response to the assertion that Mab was simply defending her property, Harry:

Elegast,

Lea's charge is to defend Harry from spiritual attack, in other words, attacks from the Never-never.  Little Chicago is a manifestation of mortal magic in the real world.  It doesn't fall under what Maggie Sr. Paid for and any new action would have incurred new debt for Harry.  Therefore, I believe my crticism of the Mab theory stands.

My response to TCF regarding his question about the information she provided that helped harry beat the Kemmlerites:

TCF,

If that's the case why didn't Mab take out the heirs of Kemmler?  Why not take direct action as the Mab theory proponents suggest she did with Little Chicago?

Here's my response to TCF and Paladino:

TCF,

Harry Could have survived Little Chicago too.  Perhaps he would have seen the flaw and refrained from using it, or seen the flaw and fixed it before using it?  There were no guarantee's with Kemmelerites either.

Paladino,

Harry already knows that someone fixed Little Chicago.  Once he gets the opportunity to time travel perhaps he puts two and two together and heads over to his place?

Regarding Ms. Duck's contention that Harry, if Time Traveling will never let the two kids die at Splattercon!!!:

Ms. Duck,

Here's the thing with the two kids.  Pre Changes, Ghost Story I'd agree that Harry would never let those two kids die if he could stop it.  What if, Harry discovers later than there was some important reason those two kids die or that if he prevents their deaths something else even worse would happen.  C and GS were Harry learning and then seeing what Blowback is.  They are forcing him to start looking longer term at the consequences of his actions, no matter how good intended they are. 

[Spoilers for Anathem ]

(click to show/hide)

At the end of the Book Erasmus asks Fraa Lodeger if there is any way Orolo could be brought back after learning of the Polycosmic time bending and world track crossing powers of the Incantors and Rhetors.  Then Erasmus answers his own question, the peace that was being signed was incompatable with his friend and Mentor being alive.  It could be done but the cost was too high despite Orolo's death.

At the end of the Book Erasmus asks Fraa Lodeger if there is any way Orolo could be brought back after learning of the Polycosmic time bending and world track crossing powers of the Incantors and Rhetors.  Then Erasmus answers his own question, the peace that was being signed was incompatable with his friend and Mentor being alive.  It could be done but the cost was too high despite Orolo's death.
  Perhaps the situation at Splattercon!!! is similar.  Harry will want those kids to be alive but recognize that, for some reason we don't know yet, if they are alive things will be much, much worse for everyone else. 

I think that is a big theme for the Dresden Files as a whole.  That you can't save everyone.  That hard choices are part of life and they cannot be avoided without great cost.

I'm not claiming to have hard evidence that this is what will happen.  I'm suggesting it makes the most sense.  The story is about Harry and his growth as a Wizard and a Human being.  It is character driven.  Having Mab show up "dues ex machina" and fix Little Chicago does very little to drive Harry's character.  Having Harry travel back in time and make very hard choices is in keeping with the overall themes of the Dresden Files.

That's my two cents.

[Elegast]

Lea's charge is to defend Harry from spiritual attack, in other words, attacks from the Never-never.

Do we have the exact wording of the contract between Lea and Maggie?

And besides Mab can do anything she wants if she feels it's her interest. Only lying, taking/giving gift and breaking oath are impossible. And honestly, deciding to save Harry was an easy call: minimal effort, great probability that he would be become WK.

[Kaiser]

Mister fixed Little Chicago!

Why?

Because Mister is the White God!

[Ms Duck]

NO, the exact details about the lea/maggie deal will be revealed around book 19, according to the schedule. There is alsot he issue of why Lea accepted such a deal, what exactly she feels about harry and thomas, and what ehr relationship with maggie was.

I believe she loved maggie, and considers harry and thomas as 'her' kids. there is some evidence for this:

-Lea often refers tot hem as her children, not her god children
-she has gone way beyond what a fariy godmother would be expected to do
- her kiss on thomas scarred him permantly
-the way she rolls her eyes at Eb
- the leandaisdhe of legend was a lover/ dark muse, who would take blood from her loevr sin return for granting them genius

as to the 'harry fixed it' I feel you need some kind of evidence. One thing that is clear, to me, is that Jim loves leaving clues. he wouldn't make something this big- if im right, its affected four novels so far- and not leave clues.

annother poster once told me they had asked JIm who did it, and Jim said ' the clues are out there, you figure it out.' I have looked for that comment, but its not in the offical woj yet, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt.

But still, i believe the truth is out there. 

[SerScot]

Ms. Duck,

actually, I think it probably can, it hust risks parageddon by doing so. It also liekly takes enormous power, which is why its likely the sort of thing gods do not mortals.

but the point is acadmeic; juts by traveling to the past you inately chnage the past. there ar enow two of you; this changes things. not to mention the whole 'buttefly effect'- part of the theory for harry time tevalign seems to involve the car. so where did he get it? is it a time travelr too? or did he steal one? by dpoing so, he changed someones past. That car accident? it changes someone's past as well. any such actions risk destorying the universe; no matter how good harry is he's not a god and cannot predict every possible effect or change.

But in the discussion between Bob and Harry about Time Travel in Proven Guilty Bob's pretty clear that it is possible and you can "nudge" unimportant things to influence events.  What you can't do is go in guns blazing and save everyone you want to save.  That's what causes the Universe to implode.  What we think we see in PG appear to be "nudges" done with great care.

Harry not being able to save those kids is exactly why I think Butcher will go that direction.  It's the sort of moral quandry that Harry will agonize over. 

[SerScot]

Elegast,

Do we have the exact wording of the contract between Lea and Maggie?

And besides Mab can do anything she wants if she feels it's her interest. Only lying, taking/giving gift and breaking oath are impossible. And honestly, deciding to save Harry was an easy call: minimal effort, great probability that he would be become WK.

Maybe, but it avoids the wonderful possiblities for torturing Harry with the ability to "fix" things.  I think he's got to face his mistakes, again.  Time travel gives Mr. Butcher the ability to tempt Harry with fixing those mistakes.

[Elegast]

he wouldn't make something this big- if im right, its affected four novels so far- and not leave clues.

You're overstating your case. Harry could have fixed LC, and yet Mab would still have pulled the strings in SmF, PG and messed with Harry's head.

I feel you made an extremely good case proving that Mab was messing with Harry's head, but we can't be absolutely sure about LC.

[Ms Duck]

Ms. Duck,

But in the discussion between Bob and Harry about Time Travel in Proven Guilty Bob's pretty clear that it is possible and you can "nudge" unimportant things to influence events.  What you can't do is go in guns blazing and save everyone you want to save.  That's what causes the Universe to implode.  What we think we see in PG appear to be "nudges" done with great care.

Harry not being able to save those kids is exactly why I think Butcher will go that direction.  It's the sort of moral quandry that Harry will agonize over.

I understand what youre saying, I just don't belive the conversation is about time travela t all; its about foresight- why gatekeepr- and in this case, I believ Mab- would do things the way they do. It's Jim's explanation for why Mab kidnaps Molly; she had to move her pieces around the board in order to change what she foresaw.

and My version tkaes the moral quandry issue and hits Harry over the head with it.

If I am correct, Mab:

-kidnapped and tortured Molly
-let thomas be tortured
-let dozens of innocents die
- set maggie jr up to be kidnapped
-set susan up to be killed

at soem point, arroudn book 19, harry will figure this out. and he will have to decide: does mab's greater good justify this? Can he forgive her? If so, can he ever forgive himself? Which hurts worse, a few random strangers or his own familly? And if he doesnt forgive Mab, and betrays her, will he beable to deal with the greate evil she foresaw without her?

there is a reason why Jim isnt doint the revael until just before the BAT- I think its because harry's decision, about Lea, his mother, and Mab, si what causes the bAT.

dramatic enough for you?

[Elegast]

I understand what youre saying, I just don't belive the conversation is about time travela t all; its about foresight- why gatekeepr- and in this case, I believ Mab- would do things the way they do. It's Jim's explanation for why Mab kidnaps Molly; she had to move her pieces around the board in order to change what she foresaw.

and My version tkaes the moral quandry issue and hits Harry over the head with it.

If I am correct, Mab:

-kidnapped and tortured Molly
-let thomas be tortured
-let dozens of innocents die
- set maggie jr up to be kidnapped
-set susan up to be killed

at soem point, arroudn book 19, harry will figure this out. and he will have to decide: does mab's greater good justify this? Can he forgive her? If so, can he ever forgive himself? Which hurts worse, a few random strangers or his own familly? And if he doesnt forgive Mab, and betrays her, will he beable to deal with the greate evil she foresaw without her?

there is a reason why Jim isnt doint the revael until just before the BAT- I think its because harry's decision, about Lea, his mother, and Mab, si what causes the bAT.

dramatic enough for you?

Yes. Problem: everything you say would still be true even if Harry was the one to fix LC.

[knnn]

Ok, so lets start a serious discussion on the theory that Harry used time-travelling to fix LC  (no mentioning of "Mab explains this better" please - lets discuss the merits of the theory on its own).

Here are some points to start with:

The nature of time travel in the DV:
The first thing we need to work out is how time travel works in the Dresdenverse. I'm sure we all have seen various ways of dealing with the problems inherent in time travel, and while we do not yet know how exactly Jim will address the issue, we have a clue (coincidentally?) in PG.

According to Bob, a big problem with Time Travel is paradoxageddon.  To be perfectly accurate, Bob's example doesn't necessarily use time travel, but merely future prediction.  His example is "if you warn someone that something will happen, he will avoid it, so how did you warn him in the first place".

To me this suggests the following interpretation of "normal" time travel in the DV:

1) You cannot change the past.  Doing anything else will risk paradoxeggedon.

2) As such, the only thing you can actually accomplish with time travel is something that already happened.  If you kill someone in the past, then historically (your timeline), he must have been killed by you as well.

Implications

If we believe this is the way that time travel works, then you are really very limited in what you can do.  For example, no  going back in time to save someone's life -- you'll destroy the universe if you do so.

Thus, if you want to change something in the past (like save a life), you need:

1) You must know that person's life had actually been saved. 
2) You must not know in advance who saved the person (i.e. if you do know that you will save that person in the future, then what if you suddenly choose not to do so? --- paradoxeggdon).
3) You probably also need to know the "Rules" of time travel.  Otherwise you are probably going to break something.

Little Chicago
Interestingly enough, if Harry does go back in time to fix LC, these three points are very conveniently covered in PG.

1) Harry knows LC got fixed.  Therefore he knows that he can fix it without causing paradox.
2) Bob makes sure to point out to Harry that LC, but not who fixed it.  If Bob was aware that Harry fixed LC using time travel, this is the exact amount of information he is supposed to pass on to Harry in order to avoid paradox.
3) Bob also makes sure to explain to Harry the rules of time travel.

Other corroborating points
Obviously we won't find much - this is very much a WAG, but here goes:

1) There is a WoJ that a future book will deal with time travel.  If we believe the theory of how time travel works in the DV, we need to find an event that already happened that will be dealt with.  Of course, the book could always take us back to Sue or something like that (which city vanished for a few hours?).  However, if Jim really wants to show us the implications of time travel, it would really need to be an event where Harry must tread carefully around events he remembers to avoid paradox .

Among all the events seen in the course of the series so far, fixing LC seems most likely. 

2) Serack did a very interesting Doyle analysis here of PG.  Specifically, he points out that Jim inserted a detour and seemingly superfluous encounter with Thomas into the narrative without any "implication".  Since Jim is an admitted "Lazy Writer", we have to ask ourselves why he needed to write those paragraphs.  If we assume that a future time travel book will take place around PG time, this creates a perfect "obstacle" for Harry to avoid.


That's all I have for now. 

[Ms Duck]

Yes. Problem: everything you say would still be true even if Harry was the one to fix LC.

let me pull an occam on that one, and say that I find the idea that mab knows about lC, used it in TC, and was in his house in smf/tc; but harry still had to go time traveling to fix lc is a bit complex for me.

Ok, so lets start a serious discussion on the theory that Harry used time-travelling to fix LC.

sweet ! go for it Knnn ! yaaaaay Knnn!

[knnn]

sweet ! go for it Knnn ! yaaaaay Knnn!

Um thanks?   

Other interesting points in the plot is that:

a) Harry gets hit by that big car, delaying him from trying his initial attempt at using LC.  That "big old car" could well be driven by a wizard, but it seems unlikely that Harry would do that to himself.
b) Molly's interruption conveniently puts off Harry's use of LC a bit longer.  Again, it would be hard to pin that one on Harry.

--> A time-travel theory would otherwise either have to say that these are lucky coincidences, or that someone else was helping out in the background.  I think this is a weakness of the theory because it involves other powers (Occam's razor here), but maybe someone else can explain it all.

Another point to consider is that Harry might not have control over his time travel -- e.g. he might be sent by Mab/Uriel/Mavra/Odin to do a specific task.  If you can reliably add this to the theory, we might be able to revise our understanding of what actually happened in PG.

[Ms Duck]

questions:

what is so important about fixing LC that harry would risk parageddon to do so?

doens't the car hoit seem like a clue bat, based on bob's discourse, that the gatekeeper was involved?

why Harry? I can see Molly going back in tiem to save herself far more likely.

and i still think any change of time, no matter how small, by a non omniscient being is insanely risky. So Harry travels time, goes inside the aprtment, and lets mister in. What if mister was chronoligcally elsewhere at that time? hes just changed time, parageddon.

suppose harry (say ehs from 100 years in the future) sneezes, or uses the bathroom. congrats, hes just spread cold virus all oevr the place that current humans have no immunity too- instant plauge. the hwol 'butterfly' effect gets very, very very nasty when you think about it.

[knnn]

what is so important about fixing LC that harry would risk parageddon to do so?

1) His life *is* on the line, so yeah.
2) According to this theory, Harry has already fixed LC.  At this point, not fixing it would cause paradox.

I realize the first two are kinda circular arguments, so:

3) Perhaps he needs to use LC to find something, and the "nearest place" he can reach it is there?
4) Maybe he finds out that a key piece of getting PG to fall out as is it actually did involves doing something in the past.

Doens't the car hoist seem like a clue bat, based on bob's discourse, that the gatekeeper was involved?

Good point. 
Actually, if we need someone else as the culprit for sending Harry back in time, the Gatekeeper makes for a good candidate.  I'd keep that thought in mind for future reference, but right now I don't see what the Gatekeeper's goal could be in this.

why Harry? I can see Molly going back in tiem to save herself far more likely.

Thing is, according to the assumptions I made earlier, in order for Molly to go back in time, she would need the knowledge that LC was in fact flawed.  As of this point in the narrative she doesn't appear to have that information, nor would I expect her to get it given that LC has been destroyed.

..unless of course you want to suggest that one of the future books is named "Veil Time" (reference to Molly's veils, time-travel and Marriage...) 

and i still think any change of time, no matter how small, by a non omniscient being is insanely risky. So Harry travels time, goes inside the aprtment, and lets mister in. What if mister was chronoligcally elsewhere at that time? hes just changed time, parageddon.

suppose harry (say ehs from 100 years in the future) sneezes, or uses the bathroom. congrats, hes just spread cold virus all oevr the place that current humans have no immunity too- instant plauge. the hwol 'butterfly' effect gets very, very very nasty when you think about it.

This is of course the problem with time travel.  On the other hand, if you really believe you have got to make the exact same steps in the sand, then there is no real story here.  You are pretty much stuck. 

As I see it, we can use one of the two following options instead:

1) Maybe we can say that the universe is resilient enough that nothing you do will break things unless you make a change you know is a contradiction.

2) You can sort of grandfather everything in.  That is, you can say something along the lines that as long as a person doesn't exercise "free will" (i.e. make a conscious decision to change things), then every he will do, he will have done already (in the sense that it has been "pre-programmed already into the universe"), and there is no change to History - hence no paradox.  Note that this might allow non-mortals to time travel.
 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I've always wondered whether the logical place to fit in a time-travelling Harry story around the events of a previous book would be DB; the bit in Mort's place where the ghosts of Chicago identify six loci of necromantic activity, only some of which correlate with known plot points, reads to me like it might be set-up for there to be other more discreet Kemmlerites in town whom future-Harry's intervention is necessitated to prevent interference with the events that already happened.