Elements

[McConaughey1984]

 OK this has been bothering me for some time and I thought I might make a post so here goes. The DFRPG books seem to make it an important point that you are restricted to three elements for evocation (you can only add elements with the purchase of the refinement ability) and one for channeling but you can accomplish any effect with any element. Now I don't advocate people with channeling should not be able to do effect because they don't have the right element. I do feel like there should be some way of differentiating the elements other than the game fluff( like the difference mentioned about how a water shield uses entropy to stop an attack and a fire shield uses heat to burn away the attack and so on). In other types of games I would suggest just adding a small bonus of some sort to each element( like a +1 to damage for fire or something). The problem here is that even a +1 bonus is a big deal in DFRPG. So any thoughts?

[Mr. Death]

As it's written, yes, you can attack/block/maneuver with each element, but that doesn't mean their differences are all fluff. They do all of those things in different ways that can have a tangible effect on the scene and the game. Fire and Air can both be used to make a Weapon:5 attack, but the air isn't going to cause a lasting aspect to the scene like Fire would if it gets out of control.

[ways and means]

There is one thing to remember about the Element Tree Spirit can do anything the other elements can (attack, block, maneuver) and it has few tricks all to itself veils (illusions) and mental attacks, if you want to focus in one element spirit is the obvious choice (also focusing in one element is the obvious choice for those who want the most utility out of their refinement).

[Praxidicae]

tbh, all of the elements have their own little "extra's" that they can do.

Earth is stated in the book as being the go-to element for electricity and gravity.

Water is capable of disrupting other magical effects.

Fire should more likely be called "Temperature" as it gives the ability to pull the heat away from an area and thus freeze things as well as charbroil them.

Air is mentioned as being the element for sound and sonics.

All of these would be somewhat more difficult to justify through the use of any of the others.

NB: I'm not saying that Spirit isn't the clear contender as most powerful of the elements (being effectively made up of both Spirit (the subtle veils and mental magics side) and Force (the blunt and direct side) it kind of has to be), just that the other elements clearly have some differentiation and that this differentiation isn't just 'fluff'.
(Personally when a character takes Spirit as an element (either through channelling, evocation or as a part of a sponsored magic) I will often 'suggest' that the player at least imply in one of the characters aspects which 'part' of Spirit their character has an affinity to. (Note: I wouldn't prevent the character using the other half in any way, it just means that a character with the "Not so Subtle" aspect for example will be able to invoke that aspect more easily to use Spirit to blast open a door, whilst at the same time, open himself up for compels if he tries to create an indetectable veil or manipulate a guard mentally).)

[UmbraLux]

Now I don't advocate people with channeling should not be able to do effect because they don't have the right element. I do feel like there should be some way of differentiating the elements other than the game fluff( like the difference mentioned about how a water shield uses entropy to stop an attack and a fire shield uses heat to burn away the attack and so on). In other types of games I would suggest just adding a small bonus of some sort to each element( like a +1 to damage for fire or something). The problem here is that even a +1 bonus is a big deal in DFRPG. So any thoughts?

Elements are aspects.  They can be invoked (by either party) and compelled when appropriate. 

[McConaughey1984]

First of all thanks to all for responding. Second yes it seems some elements are more obvious to effect things but with a little thought you could get around that. You could alter sound by controlling the water vapor in the air or by heating or cooling the air. You could alter the gravity by removing heat in the ground causing it to be more dense (ok that last one is a bit of a stretch but hey the GM might allow it). The use of FATE points can add aspects to the scene but that is not part of the elements themselves.
 Once again thanks to all for responding 

[devonapple]

I find the elements flexible, though a decent constraint of plausibility. And I think that's all they really need to be: a narrative excuse to do some things with magic, and not other things.

[sinker]

First of all thanks to all for responding. Second yes it seems some elements are more obvious to effect things but with a little thought you could get around that. You could alter sound by controlling the water vapor in the air or by heating or cooling the air. You could alter the gravity by removing heat in the ground causing it to be more dense (ok that last one is a bit of a stretch but hey the GM might allow it).

We have discussed this before, and I really wish I had a better memory, because I am certain that, while it's true that you can use elements in the manner you describe, there's rules that make those kinds of things more difficult. I just don't remember where they are and can't ever find them....

Sancta? Can you help me out here? I swear it was you who brought them up before.

The use of FATE points can add aspects to the scene but that is not part of the elements themselves.

What Umbra is saying is that, if you treat the elements as extra aspects on a wizard's sheet (and it's a good idea to do this) then when a player is trying to do something outside of their element (or something that's a little bit of a stretch or a little wonky) then you have the option of compelling so that everyone's satisfied with the result (you don't feel like the player is cheating and the player gets a shiny fate point).

[UmbraLux]

The use of FATE points can add aspects to the scene but that is not part of the elements themselves.

Err, I'll reiterate - elements are aspects. 

One of the ways in which evocation efects are defined is by elements, basic aspects (no pun intended) of reality that have different affinities for certain types of effects.

  Even if you prefer not to label them aspects in and of themselves, they're certainly fodder for declarations.  Using the aspect, whether declared or inherent, is really the only way to limit what a given element can do. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Sancta? Can you help me out here? I swear it was you who brought them up before.

I vaguely remember something along those lines.

Are these threads ringing a bell?

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27513.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23028.0.html

[McConaughey1984]

Yes! This is exactly what I was hopping for thank you all, this input will help greatly in an up coming game. And please if anyone has more to add do so.

Thanks

[sinker]

I vaguely remember something along those lines.

Are these threads ringing a bell?

Those weren't quite what I was looking for, but they led me to others, etc.

OK, Elements:

Mechanically elements (as evocation) are all capable of the same four actions. Attack, Block, Maneuver and Counterspell. But how they do them will differ in the following ways.

Firstly, different pre-existing aspects will interact with elements in different ways. For example, a fire spell could be boosted by invoking the "Soaked in gasoline" aspect, while a water or air spell could not. The "Stormy weather" aspect could be invoked to create a more powerful water or air spell, however a fire spell may actually be compelled against.

Secondly elements themselves can be treated as aspects or be the source of declarations concerning the element. A great example of this is if I throw up my "Dome of force" and you go "Aha! Force does not protect you from the heat of my flamethrower!" This is essentially you compelling the aspect "Dome of Force" (or invoking your "flamethrower" which compels my "Dome of Force") to bypass my block. This also allows us to look at the elements themselves and compel the ways that they are different. Fire is great at messing with energy, but it's not good at physical objects so much. Most fire blocks could be compelled to allow physical objects (like bullets) to pass.

Thirdly (and this comes up less often than others) elements interact with Toughness powers. Something may be immune to fire (but not other elements), or may have a Catch of fire.

Lastly if you look at the section on modifying difficulties on YS311-312 it talks about increasing the difficulty of actions by two shifts if they are rushed, hampered by movement, or (and this is the important one) ill prepared. I would say that fire is definitely "Ill prepared" to move something or freeze something. It's possible (using vacuums or diverting heat elsewhere) but it's harder because the element is not suited to the task. This gives us a 2 shift increase in difficulty. Normally (since there's only one difficulty in the evocation action) this would apply to the control roll, but as Fred has discussed before, it doesn't really make a huge difference where those shifts go. They could increase the amount of power required (increasing the conviction difficulty), they could increase the opponent's defense roll (increasing the to-hit difficulty), throw those two shifts where you feel they make the most sense.