Author Topic: Template Balance  (Read 16612 times)

Offline Tallyrand

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2012, 02:54:21 AM »
What skills can Evocation replace? It's good for attacks and for some trappings of Might, but that's about it.

It can replace any skill if you would use it for a maneuver, any attack still, it can be your primary defense and it can with some creativity do the work of a lot of social skills.

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As for Thaumaturgy, that's not as broad as you present it as. What you can do with Thaumaturgy and what it takes is largely dependent on GM fiat. Would you let someone use Thaumaturgy to win an argument? To own an airplane? It's up to you. And a teen-level ritual is kind of a big deal, it's not something that you're supposed to toss out casually.

Even with a strict GM it can easily be used for Investigation, any sort of information gathering skill use, any type of maneuver, and with sufficient forethought even let you win an argument.  Of course GM fiat can say no to almost any of these, but it can also say no to anything else.

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Magic is prominent in the setting =/= wizards are the game's protagonists and power players. It's an undeniable fact that Evil Hat intentionally erred on the side of power for wizards, but it seems strange to me that people think they were meant to be the best things in the game.

Maybe it's residual expectations from other RPGs...in D&D, non-casters kinda suck by comparison with full casters. And in some White Wolf games, mortals are by design quite pathetic.

I think that the argument really comes down not to that wizards are meant to be the protaganists (we'd have to ask them about that) but that they are the most powerful.  You seem to agree since the two examples you site are two of the classic examples of unbalanced games.  In D&D (3.5 and before) there was a balance logic that low level wizards suck and high level wizards are gods.  And in White Wolf mortals aren't intended to be balanced with Mages.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2012, 03:23:00 AM »
You can't use Evocation for Rapport or Craftsmanship or Athletics maneuvers. It has its own maneuver trapping, but that trapping doesn't duplicate the maneuver trappings of other skills well.

While GM fiat can say no to anything, it actively has to say yes to Thaumaturgy. That's kind of important.

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Even with a strict GM it can easily be used for Investigation, any sort of information gathering skill use, any type of maneuver, and with sufficient forethought even let you win an argument.
 

I'm anything but strict, but this isn't true when I'm running the game. If something would be a difficulty 3 Investigation roll, and you have Lore 5, that doesn't mean you can just say "I do it with a ritual".

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2012, 03:38:21 AM »
What skills can Evocation replace? It's good for attacks and for some trappings of Might, but that's about it.
Eh?  It's good for any physical skill and possibly a few non-physical.  Maneuvers cover a lot of ground.  Blocks & Veils almost as much. 

I wouldn't call it a universal skill replacement, but getting a +2 when you need it certainly helps boost an otherwise low skill.

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And a teen-level ritual is kind of a big deal, it's not something that you're supposed to toss out casually.
You continually assert this...but making teen level anything difficult requires making maneuvers and declarations arbitrarily difficult.  Kind of a jerk GM move in my opinion.  The default rules would allow a group of four to hit teens on the second exchange even with a few failures.  With a hundred percent success rate (not too likely but not impossible) they could hit +14 on the same exchange in which one of them acts to use the tags.

It'll probably take them two exchanges with an average maneuver / declaration target of Good and a requirement of one aspect per skill.  (The latter being a restriction I prefer to use, not a book requirement.)

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Magic is prominent in the setting =/= wizards are the game's protagonists and power players. It's an undeniable fact that Evil Hat intentionally erred on the side of power for wizards, but it seems strange to me that people think they were meant to be the best things in the game.

Maybe it's residual expectations from other RPGs...in D&D, non-casters kinda suck by comparison with full casters. And in some White Wolf games, mortals are by design quite pathetic.
Don't know if it was entirely intended (though I do think they were meant to be very powerful) but casters are capable of more than most.  Pure mortals can nova - one exchange of fate point dumping for massive totals - but then they're out of fate points.  Casters get 3 to 6 exchanges (give or take) of numbers around three times the high skill limit.  Everyone else puts out consistent numbers close to twice the high skill limit.  (Lower for a pure mortal post nova.)

Those are simply the (ballpark) numbers.  Other games aren't relevant.
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2012, 03:46:56 AM »
Anecdotal offering:

My players rip out 12- to 17-shift rituals almost every game, but they have THREE Wizards so that's not a huge challenge.

In the game I play in, I can generally get a handful of 3-6 Declarations out of the other players to support one of my character's rituals, which means he can reliably run rituals in the high teens. Casting the ritual is, of course, a blast.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2012, 04:01:52 AM »
Boosting a skill with an Evocation maneuver is not the same as having Evocation replace another skill.

And the difficulty of a ritual is almost totally arbitrary. All you can do is try to work out how hard it should be and make it that hard.

The game seems to be written under the assumption that 12 shifts is a powerful ritual. (In the Evil Acts casefile, a big plot-level ritual is described as being 25 shifts IIRC.) This assumption also makes the game more balanced. So not adopting it seems unwise to me.

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2012, 04:15:19 AM »
I think one thing that may need more discussion is to what extent can evocation (and to a lesser extent, thaumaturgy and enchanted items) be used to substitute for skill rolls.  For example, Harry has used evocation to 'force jump'.  So that implies that you could use evocation to replace (or augment?) an athletics roll for movement.  And veils already let you use evocation in place of stealth.

During combat, this sort of thing isn't a big deal, because of the very limited number of spells you can bring off, but in non-combat situations, where stress doesn't matter, this can be a big thing.

If evocation is allowed to be a general skill replacer, then yes it can quickly be over powered.

Maybe make skill replacement evocations like rotes, in that you can only do a limited number/type of them?

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2012, 04:28:52 AM »
Boosting a skill with an Evocation maneuver is not the same as having Evocation replace another skill.
I agree.  It's more an enhancer than a replacer.  It also takes two actions (if using maneuvers).  But it does help make up for having three of your highest skills dedicated to magic.

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And the difficulty of a ritual is almost totally arbitrary. All you can do is try to work out how hard it should be and make it that hard.
There are guidelines - I tend to interpret them fairly strictly which can put tracking spells in the teens...higher with wards or intentional hiding.  And, importantly, impossible without an appropriate symbolic link.

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The game seems to be written under the assumption that 12 shifts is a powerful ritual.
Where is this assumption from?  Or is it your assumption?

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(In the Evil Acts casefile, a big plot-level ritual is described as being 25 shifts IIRC.)
Err, this is "a big plot-level ritual" for a campaign lasting one or two sessions, right?  Sounds about right to me.  Certainly isn't immediately world shaking.

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This assumption also makes the game more balanced. So not adopting it seems unwise to me.
Mechanical balance is a secondary goal.  Still a goal, but it takes back seat to balancing "screen time" / narrative effectiveness.  It does matter, and it can affect the primary goal if too imbalanced.  But I don't particularly want to play rock-paper-scissors either.  ;)
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2012, 12:38:25 PM »
What skills can Evocation replace? It's good for attacks and for some trappings of Might, but that's about it.
Attacks, blocks, and maneuvers of pretty much any type, more reliably than a skill roll. Someone with Guns at 5 could roll a block against a doorway to keep people out, and end up with only a 3-shift block. Someone with Conviction at 5 could block that same doorway with a spell of up to 8 shifts. Evocation can replace a dodge score with something well beyond what the caster might have ever rolled. Though it's risky (or at least, compel-worthy), they can even use it for sprinting. Name a combat action, and there's probably some way to do it with evocation.

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As for Thaumaturgy, that's not as broad as you present it as. What you can do with Thaumaturgy and what it takes is largely dependent on GM fiat. Would you let someone use Thaumaturgy to win an argument? To own an airplane? It's up to you. And a teen-level ritual is kind of a big deal, it's not something that you're supposed to toss out casually.
I said versatile, not fast. Yes, it depends on GM fiat, but I'm talking about accomplishing the goal, not necessarily the same effect. Own an airplane? Probably not. Give yourself a speedboost through the Nevernever and make it there faster than any plane? Almost certainly. Create a winning argument? Again, probably a stretch. Putting a solid maneuver on the crowd to make them clap for you even if all you're doing is reading the phone book? Potentially law-breaking, but doable.

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If your shield requires even a single boosting maneuver to break, you probably outclass your opponents quite badly.
How do you figure? If your opponent is attacking from 5, that means you're talking a strength of 7 or 8 shifts, which is easy to pull off for a wizard with Conviction at 5 and any focus items.

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A zone shield's strength is two less than the power of the spell minus any shifts of duration. And ties go to the attacker, if I recall correctly. Assuming no duration, you need to beat the opponent's attack by 3. If you can do that reliably, why not just take your opponents out?
Maybe you're defensively focused, rather than offensively. Maybe the baddies have a lower attack score than their dodge score. Maybe not getting hit is just plain more important for whatever reason than going on the offensive is.

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Worse, it's possible to ignore a block entirely without sacrificing anything. Spending a round maneuvering is often a good idea even when there's no block in the way, the baddies can just do that.
Yeah, but if they have to maneuver to get around your block, that means it's not their choice--you're controlling the flow of battle, not them.

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Shields aren't totally useless, but the cases where they are useful are extremely rare.

(Unless you frequently have the chance to prep for combat ahead of time. In that case, shield away.)
They can make a heck of a difference if the wizard's dodge roll is comparatively low (and assuming an optimized wizard in a Submerged game, chances are the dodge roll's not going to be higher than 3), even if it is broken. A monster matching and beating the 5-shift block is going to do less damage than if he'd nailed a solid hit on a 3-shift defense.

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Magic is prominent in the setting =/= wizards are the game's protagonists and power players. It's an undeniable fact that Evil Hat intentionally erred on the side of power for wizards, but it seems strange to me that people think they were meant to be the best things in the game.

Maybe it's residual expectations from other RPGs...in D&D, non-casters kinda suck by comparison with full casters. And in some White Wolf games, mortals are by design quite pathetic.
Could be. Also, as noted, the name of the game and its star is a wizard, so those who came into the game from the books are going to look at Harry Dresden, and by extension wizards, as very important.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2012, 04:08:24 PM »
Evocation can be used to represent quick illusions.  These illusions can serve as intimidation, presence, maybe even rapport (seduction) if trying to lure a lecherous fella around a corner.


Athletics, Might, attack skills (guns, fists, weapons), rapport, intimidation, presence, stealth, whatever skill you use for demolitions, -  likely more that aren't coming to me.

That is a fair number of skills, being replaced or made obsolete.

If we take sponsored magic into account and by extension EvoThaum.... well you can get most any short term effect in the time it takes to get a skill roll.

Offline Viatos

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2012, 06:03:21 PM »
You can't use Evocation for Rapport or Craftsmanship or Athletics maneuvers. It has its own maneuver trapping, but that trapping doesn't duplicate the maneuver trappings of other skills well.

Rapport probably not, but the purpose of Athletics is to move you around - why couldn't you model that through telekinesis, a perfectly controlled surge of wind, a pack of stone sled dogs, or a flowing ice halfpipe? As for Craftsmanship, I'd argue that fixing or constructing things is within the range of Earth or Spirit, and Water, Fire, and Earth all look good for structural attacks.

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2012, 06:11:19 PM »
Rapport probably not, but the purpose of Athletics is to move you around - why couldn't you model that through telekinesis, a perfectly controlled surge of wind,

Well, with Harry the downside of this method of movement is getting spattered across the landscape if it goes out of control, which is always an option with magic, especially if the Wizard has any aspects you could compel.

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a pack of stone sled dogs,
I'm not an expert on Evocation, but isn't it fairly direct and straight forward?  Animating stone dogs that last for any length of time would seem to be the province of Thaumaturgy.

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or a flowing ice halfpipe?
Cool enough to momentarily ignore balance issues IMO.  Also wouldn't sliding in an ice halfpipe require it's own Athletics roll?  Might be a cool way to avoid barrier ratings or get to inaccessible areas though.

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As for Craftsmanship, I'd argue that fixing or constructing things is within the range of Earth or Spirit

Again, fixing or constructing seems beyond the scope of Evocation. 

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Water, Fire, and Earth all look good for structural attacks.

No argument here, Evocation is good at smashing shit, though if you count lightning among Air's elements there's no call to count that out.  Also raw force can smash stuff good, so Spirit should be in there too.  It really doesn't take much to spot the destructive potential of the various elements. 
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2012, 06:30:50 PM »
I'd limit construction applications to gross, bulk, unskilled rearrangement: making huge holes in the ground (Maneuver), or hills (block: zone border), perhaps chaotic piles of nearby detritus (block: zone border).

I would also, perhaps, allow a few rounds of "setup" Maneuvers to accomplish more organized effects: an Earth Maneuver to displace some earth, and Air Maneuver to squeeze it together into a wall, and a Fire Maneuver to reinforce it, then tag them all to give more duration to whatever is being cast.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2012, 08:14:40 PM »
Wow, a lot of people here are really permissive with Evocation. It's important to note that its maneuver trapping is not all-encompassing, and that its blocks are easier to break than normal blocks. And that you have to pay extra to shield a zone.

I can't help but feel that many of people's problems with Evocation come from letting people use it for basically whatever they want. There is no "evocation move" action. It does not exist. Your only chance of pulling something like that off it to Invoke a maneuver aspect for effect, which is not a reliable way to do anything.

And shields =/= dodge rolls. Shields are more analogous to skill blocks, or to full defence actions.

Anyway, like I said, there do exist scenarios where shields are useful. But they're rare, and usually a little bit contrived.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2012, 11:04:11 PM »
There is no "evocation move" action. It does not exist.
If I remember correctly, there's a sidebar discussion where Harry and Billy discuss this, and conclude that it's possible (and there's a couple times Harry does it in the books), but risky (before falling painfully on his ass, at best).

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And shields =/= dodge rolls. Shields are more analogous to skill blocks, or to full defence actions.
Point is, a solid shield turns someone who'd normally be dodging at 2 or 3 into someone you have to pass 5 or 6 to lay a hand on.

And I'm not sure they're easier to break. I know, once they do break they're gone (though I could make an argument that that makes little sense when applied to blocks against perception), but you can make it much harder to break them. Someone using Weapons to establish a block is still at the whims of the dice--however badass you are, there's always the chance you'll blow the roll and end up with a 3-shift block instead of a 5. With evocation, even if the dice are against you, you can still put the block up in full force for a price, and that full force can be considerably higher than the skill cap.

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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2012, 02:33:24 AM »
Wow, a lot of people here are really permissive with Evocation. It's important to note that its maneuver trapping is not all-encompassing, and that its blocks are easier to break than normal blocks. And that you have to pay extra to shield a zone.

I can't help but feel that many of people's problems with Evocation come from letting people use it for basically whatever they want. There is no "evocation move" action. It does not exist. Your only chance of pulling something like that off it to Invoke a maneuver aspect for effect, which is not a reliable way to do anything.

And shields =/= dodge rolls. Shields are more analogous to skill blocks, or to full defence actions.

Anyway, like I said, there do exist scenarios where shields are useful. But they're rare, and usually a little bit contrived.

You have to be able to model telekinesis with magic.  It goes far faster than thaumaturgy rituals.  If you assume evothaum is required for that...I don't know what to say other than it makes sense telekinesis should be doable with Spirit magic.  Telekinesis should allow people and things to be moved, including the caster.