Template Balance

[ways and means]

If you follow the templates then by far the strongest class is Wizards who can get accuracy ratings up to the low teens by Submerged, compared to Changelings, Shape shifters, minor practitioners and the bulk of the other classes that can get a max accuracy of 6* (sans any IoP bonus). This means that Wizard/sorcery/fp can do twice as much damage per turn (much more than twice with area effects which only they have) and are twice as likely to hit. In addition to this a wizard also can do a wide variety of things other classes can't and if they focus in spirit they can also be better than stealth than  a stealth focused non-caster and can attack enemies mental stress track. So if you strictly follow the templates how do you stop your wizards completely dominating the game?

*You can technically get seven if your willing to take a minus two to your defense with swing for the fences or use infuriate with incite anger.

[sinker]

Two ways; Firstly ask each wizard to take one or more aspects defining their wizardly style. This keeps them from using magic to solve every problem. Secondly throw more problems at the group that a big magic cannon can't solve.

[devonapple]

Make sure the non-wizards do something to contribute?

In one game, I'm playing a wizard-level spellcaster (the tenebromancer, if anyone remembers/cares), alongside a (formerly Virgin) WCV, a (new to the group) Werewolf and two Pure Mortals. Until the Werewolf joined the group, my PC was the only one who ever took Consequences. Granted some of them were from his own spellcasting, but I felt like I bore the most weight in any given conflict. All that extra power made him a bigger target, and the option to use that power - coupled with the chaos of dice rolls - meant he often pushed himself to almost Dresden-level self-abuse. He still hasn't taken an Extreme, but he often has that 6-point Consequence slot filled with something (usually a temporary insanity or infirmity).

[Becq]

To get an accuracy into the low teens, you basically turn your character into a glass cannon with a narrow focus.  So I would imagine that the best way to deal with this (without house rules) is to emphasize the "glass" and "narrow" parts of that.  Find ways to highlight the weak spots of the single element chosen, whereas other elements might have provided better results.  Demonstrate how few attacks it takes to down a character with no meaningful defenses.

Also, keep in mind that a guy with physical powers and a sword can keep swinging that sword at foes no matter how long the fight lasts.  A wizard only has so many mental stress boxes (and possibly a few consequences) to use as "ammo" for spells.  This can be highlighted by having long fights, or by stringing several smaller fights together without down time in between.  Having opponents that inflict mental stress can interfere with spellcasting by "destroying" the wizard's "ammo" before it can be used.

Obviously, you don't want to do any of the above to excess, lest you make the wizard's player feel hounded on.  But doing so once in a while might let other non-wizards have a chance in the spotlight.

That said, I think that the rules beg for some very simple house rules that address this issue.  A couple that might help this issue are:
1) Focus items improve the control roll only for purposes of establishing control over the shifts of power, not for determining the attack's results.
2) The wizard's focus items have to be fit into a pyramid of their own, just like skills and specializations.

[ways and means]

To get an accuracy into the low teens, you basically turn your character into a glass cannon with a narrow focus.  So I would imagine that the best way to deal with this (without house rules) is to emphasize the "glass" and "narrow" parts of that.  Find ways to highlight the weak spots of the single element chosen, whereas other elements might have provided better results.  Demonstrate how few attacks it takes to down a character with no meaningful defenses.

Also, keep in mind that a guy with physical powers and a sword can keep swinging that sword at foes no matter how long the fight lasts.  A wizard only has so many mental stress boxes (and possibly a few consequences) to use as "ammo" for spells.  This can be highlighted by having long fights, or by stringing several smaller fights together without down time in between.  Having opponents that inflict mental stress can interfere with spellcasting by "destroying" the wizard's "ammo" before it can be used.

Obviously, you don't want to do any of the above to excess, lest you make the wizard's player feel hounded on.  But doing so once in a while might let other non-wizards have a chance in the spotlight.

That said, I think that the rules beg for some very simple house rules that address this issue.  A couple that might help this issue are:
1) Focus items improve the control roll only for purposes of establishing control over the shifts of power, not for determining the attack's results.
2) The wizard's focus items have to be fit into a pyramid of their own, just like skills and specializations.

A Narrow Focus in spirit is still a tonne wider than a narrow focus in melee, fist, guns etc, someone who focuses in spirit get a reasonable  number of defense, stealth, maneuvering and attacking options including the extremely powerful mental stress option. Also there is one template that just about matches a pure wizard for damage but that is only if you follow the letter rather than the spirit of the Raw on how emotion vampire and potent emotion react and thats the WCV with its two mental attack per turn still weaker than a focused caster but not by much.

[HobbitWarrior]

Wear them down.  This game is geared towards wizards so it stands to reason they're the ones with the most options and at times the biggest gun.  However, unless you've made the mistake of letting them have more than 4 mental stress boxes the most their going to be able to cast is 4 times before they start hurting themselves.  Badly, if magic is the only thing they have and in less time if they focused on control over power for specializations and focus. 

It's not particularly hard.  Force them to use their spells for specific targets, or protecting themselves first.  Think Marcone's Fomor fight from Even Hand. 

If they're using focus items for most of their bang, have a grappler take it away.

At the very least you could always throw goons at them first, forcing them to spend their stress on nothing and then have the big bad show up.

Other than that it really depends on the type of caster you're dealing with. If they're the WC Laws of Magic are higher than God's type, give them situations where they have to take on normal people.  Or things that blur the line between human and non-human.  Make them have to think twice before blasting someone to ashes and getting a lawbreaker dropped on them.  If they're the other kind, where rules are meant to be broken and they're already sitting with several lawbreakers put them up against other wizards or beings with magic.  Aside from just counter spells, there are several powers in Sanctaphrax's custom power list that drains or redirects spells. 

Wizards are mean, but the system does a good job of balancing that with drawbacks.  Use the system and if necessary focus the combat so that the wizard doesn't have a chance to always steal the show. 

[Viatos]

To get an accuracy into the low teens, you basically turn your character into a glass cannon with a narrow focus.  So I would imagine that the best way to deal with this (without house rules) is to emphasize the "glass" and "narrow" parts of that.  Find ways to highlight the weak spots of the single element chosen, whereas other elements might have provided better results.  Demonstrate how few attacks it takes to down a character with no meaningful defenses.

What?! No. You are neither a glass cannon, nor are you narrowly focused. You're a three-element caster and just one of your elements has the same breadth of utility and potential as many other character concepts entire. And the problem with finding ways to highlight weak spots is clever players will highlight ways to work around that. Elements are insanely broad.

Also, keep in mind that a guy with physical powers and a sword can keep swinging that sword at foes no matter how long the fight lasts.  A wizard only has so many mental stress boxes (and possibly a few consequences) to use as "ammo" for spells.  This can be highlighted by having long fights, or by stringing several smaller fights together without down time in between.  Having opponents that inflict mental stress can interfere with spellcasting by "destroying" the wizard's "ammo" before it can be used.

The guy swinging his sword can't two-shot an entity with Mythic Toughness. Attacks that deal mental stress go up against Discipline, which casters max.

Obviously, you don't want to do any of the above to excess, lest you make the wizard's player feel hounded on.  But doing so once in a while might let other non-wizards have a chance in the spotlight.

The problem with this is the same problem it has in other systems: beating up on the epic character to make the lame characters feel better just keeps the whole party feel better. The wizard is too strong; either other party members need to be stronger, or casting itself needs to be rebuilt.

That said, I think that the rules beg for some very simple house rules that address this issue.  A couple that might help this issue are:
1) Focus items improve the control roll only for purposes of establishing control over the shifts of power, not for determining the attack's results.
2) The wizard's focus items have to be fit into a pyramid of their own, just like skills and specializations.

This is a good start.

[Becq]

A Narrow Focus in spirit is still a tonne wider than a narrow focus in melee, fist, guns etc, someone who focuses in spirit get a reasonable  number of defense, stealth, maneuvering and attacking options including the extremely powerful mental stress option. Also there is one template that just about matches a pure wizard for damage but that is only if you follow the letter rather than the spirit of the Raw on how emotion vampire and potent emotion react and thats the WCV with its two mental attack per turn still weaker than a focused caster but not by much.

Some of that is a matter of interpretation.  For example:

• I disagree that a pure wizard can inflict mental stress ... without breaking the Law.  This has been discussed extensively, and I understand that opinions differ, but I see the RAW as being ... well, at least moderately clear.
• I disagree that Incite Emotion generates two attacks per turn.  This has also been discussed and I understand that opinions differ.

There are other issues that I think were oversights by the game design staff.  For example, I don't think they properly considered the possibility of a starting character taking a +5 offensive focus and stacking a specialization bonus on top of that.  I think they expected a more balanced approach, which can be seen in the many sample characters.  So they left an unexpected loophole, which is not too hard to eliminate with a simple house rule or two.

[Becq]

What?! No. You are neither a glass cannon, nor are you narrowly focused. You're a three-element caster and just one of your elements has the same breadth of utility and potential as many other character concepts entire. And the problem with finding ways to highlight weak spots is clever players will highlight ways to work around that. Elements are insanely broad.

This depends a lot on play style.  For example, Dresden relied on Spirit to provide a largely impenetrable shield.  Until Butcher had an NPC pull out a flamethrower and made a declaration about how little protection force spells provided against heat...

The guy swinging his sword can't two-shot an entity with Mythic Toughness. Attacks that deal mental stress go up against Discipline, which casters max.

Just as a single (contrived) example, consider a combat-focussed pure mortal attacking a Fae with Mythic Toughness.  Now, obviously the mortal will have brought his iron greatsword along, so instead of -3 stress we shift to +3 stress per attack.  For the sake of argument, let's grant that both characters have 5s in attack and defense skills.  So the mortal swings, then spends 5+ Fate for a +10 on the attack (tagging three combat-related aspects, a scene aspect, and the Fae's high concept due to the iron).  Assuming average rolls, that's 13 stress, so probably a moderate and severe consequence, right?  So his next attack will spend his remaining 5 Fate, plus tag those two consequences, netting 17 stress.  Goodbye, Fae.  Contrived example?  Yes.  But if you want to two-shot stuff, there's a path to doing it.  Swords of the Cross, Strength powers, and the like could also help (in a non-pure mortal scenario).

As to the mental stress comment, my point was that a spellcaster can only cast one spell per box of mental stress (plus a few if he burns consequences).  For each stress box or consequence a WCV (or other mental combatant) inflicts on the wizard, he's just lost the potential for a spell -- and a consequence plus a box means two fewer spells with a single attack.

Look, I'm not going to argue that wizards don't have the potential to be munchkined into a broken mess.  They do.  For tables who don't like this fact, potentially easy answers include creating house rules to mitigate, having the NPCs come up with ways to deal with their wizardly opponent, and/or insisting that optimized wizards not be played.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Don't forget one of the most basic balancing points of the whole game design - Refresh and Fate Points.

A Wizard who takes Refinement likely has no more than 2 Fate Points (and often only 1) at the start of each story. The GM can and should be hitting all the players with compels, but the Wizard is forced to accept more of them than other players if he wants to have a good stash of fate points for when things get tough. Thus, if compels are getting your players into as much danger and trouble as they should (think all the various nasty situations Harry gets tricked or lured into, or all the times he thought he had things under control until it all went wrong), you've got a natural balancing point.

This game wasn't designed to be balanced around numbers, in my opinion. Story and mechanics are tied too closely together to ignore one or the other in a debate like this.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wizards aren't all that hot. Even optimized, they can be competed with by optimized Scions, Shapeshifters, Changelings, Emissaries, mortals, and Focused Practitioners.

Unless you decide that spirit can hit the mental stress track. Which is, I'd like to point out, not actually part of the rules. It's just implied by an element description and some setting material. Ignore those implications, they make spellcasting uber-powerful instead of merely super-powerful.

The Laws have nothing to do with this, by the way. The biggest victims of mental stress with Evocation are monsters like Sue. Then again, Sue and company do suffer from the existence of Incite Emotion already.

The problem with Template balance, in my opinion, is that it's basically impossible to optimize some other Templates because suboptimal choices are locked in.

Don't forget one of the most basic balancing points of the whole game design - Refresh and Fate Points.

A Wizard who takes Refinement likely has no more than 2 Fate Points (and often only 1) at the start of each story. The GM can and should be hitting all the players with compels, but the Wizard is forced to accept more of them than other players if he wants to have a good stash of fate points for when things get tough. Thus, if compels are getting your players into as much danger and trouble as they should (think all the various nasty situations Harry gets tricked or lured into, or all the times he thought he had things under control until it all went wrong), you've got a natural balancing point.

This game wasn't designed to be balanced around numbers, in my opinion. Story and mechanics are tied too closely together to ignore one or the other in a debate like this.

None of that is story, all of that is numbers.

Which is good, because numbers are the only thing you can really balance around.

This game is geared towards wizards...

Where does this idea come from? I don't really understand it.

Oh, and I object to the idea that the GM should have to work to prevent one character type from stealing the show. That indicates poor balance. But for what it's worth, I don't think that wizards really demand so much work.

Not sure how feasible those wearing-down ideas are. Could you provide an example of how they're supposed to work?

[Silverblaze]

@ Sanctaphrax: "Not sure how feasible those wearing-down ideas are. Could you provide an example of how they're supposed to work?"

This is an example:

Let's say people did not know how scary Marcone is.  Those people are the PC's.  The PC's have a few problems.  Marcone has mortals with guns.  Killing mortals breaks a law of magic (assuming the wizards fry them with magic,...which is the issue at hand, so please lets assume they weree going to do that).  Now the wizard/s have to decide "do I risk lawbreaker stunts".  They have to get creative.  Which is good.  Lets assume in taking down some mooks that they each use a stress, maybe two per wizard.

 That leaves less stress to use when Hendricks comes down the stairs and Gard attacks from the flank.  One looks superhuman, so maybe they'll try frying Hendricks maybe they'll "waste" more stress on blocks or maneuvers so they don't kill with magic.  One is obviously superhuman.  They'll definetly try dropping Gard.  By the end of that fight I would hope they each spent at least one or two more stress.

This means Marcone (plus any other security measures) has that many less spells to worry about when you finally drag yourself to where he is for the showdown. 

Wear down the amount of spells they have for the tough encounters, by making them use stresses on mooks or guards etc.

The example can't get much more clear.


As for the game being created for wizards: I have tried time and again to explain this.  Dresden Files is a series based on a Wizard.  It is largely about choice, morality, laws of Magic, the WC etc.  Therefore, if you actually use the setting the game is based in (the Dresdenverse) Wizards are sort of a big deal.  They are the center of the universe. 

The obvious analogue: Star Wars - The Force exists in all things.  Those who control it and use it benefit from it.  Therefore, Sith and Jedi and better trained force users are more powerful than those who do not.  The game systems use that setting information.  The Force users are more powerful (at least in teh long run) than no Fore users.

This game (assuming you use the default setting) is very little different.  magic = force powers.  Better trained Wizards (Jedi) are more powerful.  At the very least they will be in the long run.

If you do not use the default setting, then yes...this arguement is foreign to you. 

However, there are many other systems to play urban fantasy.  I will play those if I don't/can't except that Wizards are important and likely more powerful here.  I chose to play this setting, I know what I am getting into.

Lets take Star  Wars as the other example.  There are many systems for space opera's.  If I want to interact with jedi and the world of Star Wars.  I accept the Force is a powerful ally.  I deal with the fact the game is sort of based around that concept.  If I reject this, I can play other systems.


This is the core problem where people are arguing for the narrative (they chose this setting because they liked it).  To some extent, they may not understand why you chose this setting if you do not like it.  Therefore it makes perfect sense that Wizards are powerful. 

Sometimes instead of changing an enitre system to fit you...you should take your ball and go home (try a new system).

I am not saying Wizards are balanced.   I am saying the GM can dissuade them from stealign the show.  I am also saying that this system (as intended) puts spellcasters at the top of the food chain.  Those who simply 100% reject that idea, may be better off with another system.  (Though it is worth pointing out - that most systems with magic in them [ aside from D&D 4th ed.] make magic a little unbalanced).


As an aside: I can and have seen plenty of ways to make wizards feel less nasty.  I've played in a long running Dresden game.  I've smoked quite a few wizards.  Not all of them allowed me to walk away without a severe consequence.  I do know taht despite being able to be one trick ponies, those are the easy ones to beat.  Besides...  sneak attacks do wonders.....

[ways and means]

You can't with the default mechanics accidentally kill someone with magic as you get to choose what happens to those you take out so if you are fighting loads of mortals you simply say you don't kill them as long as you flavor your attack on a non-lethal manner (so no I turn a room into an raging inferno but don't kill anyone.)

[Silverblaze]

You can't with the default mechanics accidentally kill someone with magic as you get to choose what happens to those you take out so if you are fighting loads of mortals you simply say you don't kill them as long as you flavor your attack on a non-lethal manner (so no I turn a room into an raging inferno but don't kill anyone.)

I don't argue that.

Not at all.

I could see a villain familiar with the Laws of Magic issueing a neat trick though.  Know you have a fire mage coming?  Make sure hios environment is ..."flammable" or "gassy" or you know..."full of rotten egg smell".  Then he could accidently kill people, maybe he wouldn't get a law breaker stunt.  I bet the Wardens would still come sniffing around.  He could also self flmbe himself and crew.

[Mr. Death]

I am not saying Wizards are balanced.   I am saying the GM can dissuade them from stealign the show.  I am also saying that this system (as intended) puts spellcasters at the top of the food chain.  Those who simply 100% reject that idea, may be better off with another system.  (Though it is worth pointing out - that most systems with magic in them [ aside from D&D 4th ed.] make magic a little unbalanced).

This, this, a thousand times, this. The game isn't made to have everything perfectly balanced so that every template stands an equal chance to be viable in every situation. It's made to reflect the setting of The Dresden Files, where Pure Mortals can get by against your average supernatural (but get stomped by things with significant power), where White Court and Werewolves can hold their own if they're good or lucky, and where the Wizards who sling around the power of the elements with a wave of their staffs can stomp the shit out of things that would eat (literally) the mortals and the werewolves.

As for keeping Wizards from being all powerful, there's a lot you can do a lot to keep them in line. Compel them to say that spells above a certain weapon rating will kill for that scene. Throw things at them that they'll need to use magic just to defend against. Give them enemies that know how to neutralize magic in some fashion.

They're extremely powerful, especially if you give them time to prepare, but a Wizard is as squishy as the pure mortal standing next to them--they've got plenty of weaknesses too.