Template Balance

[Mr. Death]

Telekinesis is basically Harry's application of Spirit magic--using it as pure force to do stuff, including move himself on several occasions (though he might have used Air for those, come to think of it).

[DFJunkie]

Gotta agree.  The reason Harry doesn't use it more than a couple times is that he specifically has issues with control and doesn't want to mess up and begin a brief career as an intercontinental ballistic wizard.  In calmer circumstances he's managed to use Evocation to float a bottle of liquor from a cabinet to his hand (Turn Coat) so it's certainly in a Spirit user's wheelhouse. 

[Becq]

Based on the information available (sidebar YS251, for example), I would say that movement via evocation would be about as effective as movement via having a giant with a huge boffer weapon smack you toward your destination.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me...

[Silverblaze]

Good idea?  No.

Still possible?  Likely.

Why couldn't rules be modeled for it?

[Becq]

I don't believe I ever said they couldn't.  In fact, I pointed to a sidebar in YS that discusses just such a house rule, and then makes basically the same conclusion I did: "So, doable. But foolish."

Hm.  Perhaps use the Thaum travel mechanics (power = effective athletics result) but inflict a (power/2) stress hit on landing, plus another (power/2) stress hit per barrier encountered...  :p

[Sanctaphrax]

Magic is as risky as normal skills, in a way. Sure, you can force a spell to work even if you roll badly. But rolling badly with magic is actually dangerous, whereas rolling badly with skills just means wasting your action.

I don't have a problem with the idea of Evocation-based movement as long as it doesn't make Wizards significantly more powerful. If Evocation really could replace most other physical skills effectively then it really would be broken.

Previous discussions of said topic:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29788.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29723.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25674.0.html

[crusher_bob]

How's this sound?

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While evocation is technically capable of many tasks, many of them require considerably more skill, practice, and luck than most wizards put into it. 

So what are these 'other' uses of evocation? 
Many skill rolls can be outright replaced by evocations, examples include moving (force jumps, 'tactical' hops through the nevernever, etc), very fine manipulation of objects (lockpicking, eavesdropping, fine craftsmanship, etc), illusions of considerable complexity, etc

In general, the power of the evocation will act as a roll of the appropriate skill.

You can gain access to the 'other uses' of evocation in the following ways:
1
Spend a fate point, to get access to the ability for a single use.
2
spend a point of refresh of a permanent expansion of your evocations to cover one trapping of a skill.

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So, for example, if you want your wizard to force jump occasionally, you can spend a fate point, and then use the evocation power of the spell in place of an athletics roll.  If you want your wizard to force jump all the time, you spend a point of refresh to explicitly gain the ability to do that all the time.

People worried about spirit being the 'most equal' element (gaining access to veils, while other elements can't do anything else), can either add one trapping to each of the elements that you can do with them, or can make veils and ability that requires one of these expansions to use.

[Praxidicae]

I'd allow that, however I would make one addition.
In cases where the trapping relates to a skill that should require some experience or training then the character ought to have that capability in some form or another before I would allow them to buy the relevant stunt, even temporarily.
 
eg. 1: If I was to use this to move the lock-picking trapping from Burglary onto evocation then shouldn't I have at least some training in picking locks. Trying to manipulate the intricate tumblers of a lock with pure mental force, without any idea as to how the lock operates seems like a recipe for a broken lock and potential disaster (and if I'm going to break the lock anyway, why not just use a concentrated blast of force to blow the lock out anyway), Added to that, if I have the necessary skill to use my Evo-Trapping Stunt for Lockpicking to open a locked vault from accross the room, but can't use lockpicks to open a simple doorlatch...that would seem a little silly.
eg. 2: If I was to move Medical Attention onto evocation then shouldn't I have an idea as to which bone the knee bone connects to, what that purple thing in my patient's chest cavity is etc.

I'd suggest that as a requirement for moving the trapping onto evocation (which potentially could be fairly powerful) the PC must either have the relevant skill at some level, or another stunt that describes how or why the character has the relevant knowledge or experience (e.g. a stunt called "Field Medic" moving the Medical Attention onto survival might allow a Survivalist Hedge-mage to buy the Evo-Trapping (Medical Attention) stunt.

[Becq]

How's this sound?

So, for example, if you want your wizard to force jump occasionally, you can spend a fate point, and then use the evocation power of the spell in place of an athletics roll.  If you want your wizard to force jump all the time, you spend a point of refresh to explicitly gain the ability to do that all the time.

Add the usual mental stress cost based on the amount of power drawn, and that's not bad -- though it does makes evocation even better than it was, which is not really necessary.

People worried about spirit being the 'most equal' element (gaining access to veils, while other elements can't do anything else), can either add one trapping to each of the elements that you can do with them, or can make veils and ability that requires one of these expansions to use.

The easiest way to balance spirit is to enforce the suggestion made in YS to limit wizards to 'subtle' spirit or 'brute force' spirit.  One way to do this is to split them into two elements, another is to have them label their element based on their choice, then treat it as an aspect to be compelled.

[synobal]

I've not really been following the discussion here, I'm just going to throw in my 2 cents. Templates are not meant to be balanced, you don't choose a template based upon how 'powerful' it is you choose a template to fit your character. Templates should not be balanced or tried to balanced with one another, because lets face it in the dresdenverse all are not created equal and it takes a very skilled mortal to equal that of a wizard but it is possible.

 My character is suppose to be a monster hunter, who is mortal so I chose pure mortal and gave him skills appropriate to his back story. He isn't great at dealing with wizards, sorcerers or warlocks but he is a very good monster hunter.  Would he be a better monster hunter if he was a wizard? perhaps but perhaps not. I know magic is very useful but it seems to me that there are a lot of times when a gun is just as or more useful than magic.

[Mr. Death]

I'd allow that, however I would make one addition.
In cases where the trapping relates to a skill that should require some experience or training then the character ought to have that capability in some form or another before I would allow them to buy the relevant stunt, even temporarily.
 
eg. 1: If I was to use this to move the lock-picking trapping from Burglary onto evocation then shouldn't I have at least some training in picking locks. Trying to manipulate the intricate tumblers of a lock with pure mental force, without any idea as to how the lock operates seems like a recipe for a broken lock and potential disaster (and if I'm going to break the lock anyway, why not just use a concentrated blast of force to blow the lock out anyway), Added to that, if I have the necessary skill to use my Evo-Trapping Stunt for Lockpicking to open a locked vault from accross the room, but can't use lockpicks to open a simple doorlatch...that would seem a little silly.
eg. 2: If I was to move Medical Attention onto evocation then shouldn't I have an idea as to which bone the knee bone connects to, what that purple thing in my patient's chest cavity is etc.

I'd suggest that as a requirement for moving the trapping onto evocation (which potentially could be fairly powerful) the PC must either have the relevant skill at some level, or another stunt that describes how or why the character has the relevant knowledge or experience (e.g. a stunt called "Field Medic" moving the Medical Attention onto survival might allow a Survivalist Hedge-mage to buy the Evo-Trapping (Medical Attention) stunt.

I think that's why you don't use Evocation to do exactly the same thing as another skill--you find a way that Evocation can get the job as a whole done, rather than using it to "fake" the same exact method.

As for move actions and forced-movement actions, I don't think you need to take a stunt for those kinds of things. Forced movement could easily be a Taken Out result, depending on just how far you want to move them (think of Harry blasting the Loup-Garou in Fool Moon, when he knocks the thing two or three blocks away with that fire spell).

[Sanctaphrax]

Add the usual mental stress cost based on the amount of power drawn, and that's not bad -- though it does makes evocation even better than it was, which is not really necessary.

I agree.

The basic idea here is sound, but I instinctively dislike the idea of making Evocation better.

The easiest way to balance spirit is to enforce the suggestion made in YS to limit wizards to 'subtle' spirit or 'brute force' spirit.  One way to do this is to split them into two elements, another is to have them label their element based on their choice, then treat it as an aspect to be compelled.

The former method sounds good, but the latter method doesn't. Aspects do not make characters weaker. If I give my Wizard a Trouble Aspect of UNABLE TO USE MAGIC, that does not actually make him less powerful.

[Tedronai]

The former method sounds good, but the latter method doesn't. Aspects do not make characters weaker. If I give my Wizard a Trouble Aspect of UNABLE TO USE MAGIC, that does not actually make him less powerful.

Although I would argue that, if your GM let that one pass, it would make the resulting game weaker.  I suppose that's a different definition of 'weak', though.

[Becq]

It wouldn't make a wizard less powerful if, every time he desperately needed to cast spell X he got a Fate point instead?

"Ok, the house around me is fully engulfed in flames.  Hm.  Ok, I'm going to use Fire to channel the heat and flame away from me, leaving me safe."
"Hm.  That's a pretty good idea, and it certainly would have protected you from the fire."
"Great.  Then I ... wait a minute, what do you mean 'would have', and why the evil smile?"
"Here, have this nice, shiny new Fate point.  I'm eager to hear your backup plan!"

[DFJunkie]

It wouldn't make a wizard less powerful if, every time he desperately needed to cast spell X he got a Fate point instead?

"Ok, the house around me is fully engulfed in flames.  Hm.  Ok, I'm going to use Fire to channel the heat and flame away from me, leaving me safe."
"Hm.  That's a pretty good idea, and it certainly would have protected you from the fire."
"Great.  Then I ... wait a minute, what do you mean 'would have', and why the evil smile?"
"Here, have this nice, shiny new Fate point.  I'm eager to hear your backup plan!"

It should be safe to assume that he has the points to buy out of it, given how many compels he's probably already taken.