FEEEEEEEEEED ME SEYMOUR!

[Manifest]

Limited Reserves. At the end of each exchange in which you have exerted your affected powers, you take one hunger stress.  If you have no available boxes on your hunger stress track when you are required to take a hunger stress, then you clear your hunger stress track and take a hunger consequence instead.  A hunger consequences are treated in every way as a normal physical or mental consequence (your choice) except that it can only be recovered from by feeding as described below.

This is actually how I treat the WCV in my group with a minor change.  Every time she uses a power in a fight afterwards she takes a number of stress equaled to the amount of powers she used.  For example, if she used inhuman strength she takes one stress but if she used both inhuman speed and strength she takes two stress.  I let her deny herself access to one of her powers temporarily in order to stop herself from taking one stress and of course if the stress goes over her track she can take consequences.  I do compel her quite a bit whenever her hunger track is full (and let her hunger become an aspect that enemies can tag) but usually she hates taking consequences and goes off for a "miniscene" and comes back fully replenished.

I guess looking back my system wouldn't necessarily work on a RCI or other feeding dependency characters.

[Becq]

That is a workable rewrite. But it sacrifices my favourite thing about the canon Feeding Dependency: the way that it encourages you to use only a fraction of your affected Powers.

Having a White Court Vampire hold back his powers to conserve "gas" is narratively appropriate, and making it mechanically appropriate as well would be great.

Fair enough.  Here's a mod that might help (underlined section):

Limited Reserves. At the end of each exchange in which you have exerted your affected powers, you take one hunger stress.  If the total refresh of powers you used exceeds the total length of your hunger stress track, take two hunger stress instead (plus an additional stress for each multiple passed thereafter after).  If you have no available boxes on your hunger stress track when you are required to take a hunger stress, then you clear your hunger stress track and take a hunger consequence instead.  A hunger consequences are treated in every way as a normal physical or mental consequence (your choice) except that it can only be recovered from by feeding as described below.

I'm not entirely comfortable with using the length of the stress track is a bit odd; I decided to word it that way because using Discipline instead causes too much emphasis on skill value.

By the numbers, this means that a character with 0 discipline takes a stress for every 2 refresh used per exchange, a character with 1-3 discipline can use 4-6 refresh worth of powers for 2 stress, and a character with 4-5 discipline can use 4 refresh for 1 stress, upt to 8 for 2 stress, and so on.

Plus, I'd like Feeding Dependency not to be limited to foods that one obtains by hurting people. Your rewrite works fine for blood drinkers and emotion eaters, but not for the money-eating monster that I've been wanting to write up.

Feeding dependency is designed for life-sucking monsters, true, and I built it based on that concept.  While the DFRPG mechanics don't state it, the novels make it clear that the various vampires (and ghouls) can't effectively feed except on human life.  Obviously, you could alter the power for more generic use, though with money as generic as it is in Fate, I'm not sure how to balance it.

One substantial issue with Becq's proposed edit:
Given the steady rate of accumulating stress, and the relatively simple and routine availability of clearing that stress, I can't really see a character going more than one or two scenes carrying stress, and certainly not going so long as to require even a mild consequence except in extreme cases.  And that's all without even having to 'feed' by more than a single roll on any given victim, let alone indulge heavily enough to risk killing.

Does the rewrite improve the outlook any?  Based on Thomas' stats, he would burn a stress per exchange using one power, or two per exchange at full power.  Two exchanges at full power (or four at minimal) would generate the first consequence.

Options to tweak this:
1) The hunger stress track doesn't clear when you take a hunger consequence.  (This seems like too much to me.)
2) Adjust the length of the track up or down.  One solid option would be to allow for a stunt that adds to the stress track length.
3) Make the consequences harder to heal: each consequence inflicted allows the recovery of a lesser hunger consequence.  So a mild consequenece requires inflicting a moderate to heal, and so on.  (I had considered this while writing it, but decided to go with the lesser form.)
4) Instead of consequences, represent accumulated hunger by aspects.  They would still require feeding to get rid of, but wouldn't tie up a consequence slot.  Make it easier to generate the aspects in the first place (possibly option 1).
5) Instead of consequences, use 'hunger debt'.  The debt could be used to compel a power to be unavailable, or to 'encourage' the need to feed.  Same as #4 in terms of increasing generation rate.

[Sanctaphrax]

I would be extremely wary of requiring that all hunger stress be absorbed by way of consequences or lost powers, though it would be mitigated if there were readily accessible consequence slots earmarked for the purpose. (an additional minor consequence slot wherever [given skill] would normally provide an additional stress box?)

Any particular reason for your wariness?

Because I've been thinking about this, and I think that this is as good an idea as I'm going to have.

Rewrite seems interesting, but I'd still rather not use it.

First, because it's another thing to track each exchange.

And second, because its granularity is fairly low. You either take one stress or two.

I really don't think that anything less complex than what I have so far is going to work for me. I've got expectations for this power.

PS: What leads you to believe that ghouls need to eat human lives? I don't recall any reason that they can't just munch on steaks like us humans.

[Tedronai]

Any particular reason for your wariness?

Most notably, I suppose, would be the ease with which those consequences would interfere with absorbing stress taken from ore conventional sources, which is why I suggested a greater availability of earmarked consequences as a good place to start in addressing that problem.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hm, I dunno.

It's good if Feeding Dependency is a major drag, if it interferes meaningfully with your ability to absorb other forms of damage. But there are limits.

I think I'll sleep on it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Draft 2, probably better but still not very good:

FEEDING DEPENDENCY [+varies]
Description: Some or all of your powers come from eating something. Probably something weird.
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Restricted Powers. When you take this power, you must select at least one other power that you possess. You must also choose a thing and an amount of that thing that you must consume in order to use those powers. Which powers and foods may be selected with this power is a matter of the GM's discretion. This power provides a variable Refresh rebate depending on how much power is selected with it. If 2 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +1. If 6 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +2. If 10 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +3. And so on. The above values assume that the food is rare or morally objectionable, like significant amounts of human blood or huge piles of cash. If the food is acquired easily and without guilt, or only with extreme measures, add or subtract an appropriate amount from the Refresh total used to calculate the rebate. If more Refresh is attached to this power than is required for the rebate received, this power provides a free mild hunger consequence for each additional Refresh.
Feeding. You are capable of consuming whatever your food is. Furthermore, when you do so, you may remove any hunger consequences that you possess and recover any powers that you lost to your hunger. If you consume an insufficient amount of your food, you may receive partial benefits at the GM's discretion.
Limited Reserves. At the end of any scene in which you use one or more of your restricted powers, you must roll your Discipline skill against a number equal to the combined Refresh value of the restricted powers that you used. If you fail this roll, you must take consequences or sacrifice restricted powers with a total Refresh value and/or stress value equal to the amount that you failed by. If you do not or can not, you are taken out. This usually means that you die, get incapacitated, or go mad with hunger, but other fates are also possible depending on the character and the situation.

Adjustments for easy or difficult foods:

-4 A few hours of sunlight, other small downtime requirements
-3 Normal food in unusually large amounts, other stuff that's no real effort
-2 Weird stuff like copper, large amounts of downtime like sleeping for a week straight
-1 Diamonds, people singing about you, other stuff that's impractical but not really difficult
0 Blood, rare radioactive materials, other difficult stuff, massive downtime like spending months in prayer
+1 Vampire blood, other difficult and dangerous stuff
+2 Human sacrifices, other stuff that's a big deal, ridiculous downtime like meditating for a decade
+3 Angel feathers, other stuff that pretty much requires a quest
+4 Planets, other nearly impossible stuff

Feedback wanted quite badly.

[Tedronai]

I'm still of a mind that adjusting the rate of scaling is a better approach than adjusting the effective total attached refresh, particularly as the latter could cause the rebate to exceed, let alone match, the investment.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think it's possible for the rebate to exceed the investment. If I attach 1 Refresh worth of power to my planet-eating dependency, I get to calculate the rebate as though I had invested 5 Refresh. That's how the power is supposed to work, though in retrospect I'm not sure that's clear.

That being said, you have a point. I'm loath to make the power even more complicated, but it might be necessary.

[Sanctaphrax]

Tried to adjust the rate of scaling, couldn't come up with anything good.

Made a tiny clarifying edit instead.

I'm planning to toss this onto the list, unless someone convinces me otherwise. Which wouldn't be very hard. I encourage you all to do it if you feel this version could be improved somehow.

"New" version:

FEEDING DEPENDENCY [+varies]
Description: Some or all of your powers come from eating something. Probably something weird.
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Restricted Powers. When you take this power, you must select at least one other power that you possess. You must also choose a thing and an amount of that thing that you must consume in order to use those powers. Which powers and foods may be selected with this power is a matter of the GM's discretion. This power provides a variable Refresh rebate depending on how much power is selected with it. If 2 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +1. If 6 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +2. If 10 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +3. And so on. The above values assume that the food is rare or morally objectionable, like significant amounts of human blood or huge piles of cash. If the food is acquired easily and without guilt, or only with extreme measures, add or subtract an appropriate amount from the Refresh total used to calculate the rebate. If more Refresh is attached to this power than is required for the rebate received, this power provides a free mild hunger consequence for each additional Refresh.
Feeding. You are capable of consuming whatever your food is. Furthermore, when you do so, you may remove any hunger consequences that you possess and recover any powers that you lost to your hunger. If you consume an insufficient amount of your food, you may receive partial benefits at the GM's discretion.
Limited Reserves. At the end of any scene in which you use one or more of your restricted powers, you must roll your Discipline skill against a number equal to the combined Refresh value of the restricted powers that you used. If you fail this roll, you must take consequences or sacrifice restricted powers with a total Refresh value and/or stress value equal to the amount that you failed by. If you do not or can not, you are taken out. This usually means that you die, get incapacitated, or go mad with hunger, but other fates are also possible depending on the character and the situation.

Adjustments for easy or difficult foods:

-4 A few hours of sunlight, other small downtime requirements
-3 Normal food in unusually large amounts, other stuff that's no real effort
-2 Weird stuff like copper, large amounts of downtime like sleeping for a week straight
-1 Diamonds, people singing about you, other stuff that's impractical but not really difficult
0 Blood, rare radioactive materials, other difficult stuff, massive downtime like spending months in prayer
+1 Vampire blood, other difficult and dangerous stuff
+2 Human sacrifices, other stuff that's a big deal, ridiculous downtime like meditating for a decade
+3 Angel feathers, other stuff that pretty much requires a quest
+4 Planets, other nearly impossible stuff

[Tedronai]

In 'Limited Reserves' I would amend 'or stress value equal to' with 'or greater than' so as to eliminate the possibility of the overly-literal 'you can't make exact change on the consequences from your failed Hunger defense, so you're taken out, even though you could easily overpay'.

(my eventual commentary on this version of the rework may not be limited to the above, but it's late, I'm tired, etc. etc., and that part jumped out at me, so I felt I should point it out before I forget)

[Sanctaphrax]

Good point.

Will fix.

[Becq]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this completely.  So I'll build an example using an RCI:

My food is blood, so no modifier to the thresholds.  I choose to attach 3 inhuman powers (strength, toughness, speed), which reaches the (unmodified) 6 refresh threshold.  So my rebate is +2.

Do I have this right so far?  So what does this get me?  It looks as though I only need to drink some amount of blood, and this clears all hunger consequences and recovers any powers lost due to hunger.

This strikes me as being too easy, especially given that the rebate is stronger than the RAW version.  I also note that I could have opted to use the 2 refresh level instead, which would have given me only a +1 rebate, but would have given me 4 extra hunger milds to play with in exchange for that sacrificed refresh.

A number of the other sample foods also strike me as being easy ways to gain some points.  "Large amounts of food", for example.  As long as it's attached to 5+ refresh worth of powers, it seems like an invitation to get a free bonus refresh.

[Sanctaphrax]

One of the most important elements of this rewrite is that you need to specify the amount of food that you must consume in order to heal. In the case of a Red, it should be enough blood to seriously harm someone.

My examples, in retrospect, are rather bad because they ignore that fact. Will fix.

The "large amounts of food" thing isn't as good as it sounds. You'll need to roll against a Superb attack every time you use your Powers. And you'll have no stress track to take the hit with. So you'll likely take consequences or lose Powers until you next get downtime.

Might still be too good, but it's not as good as it sounds.

You've got a point about the extra consequences. I think I'll cut the number you get in half.

Thanks for the hole-poking.

[Becq]

Possible example of food abuse:

Wizard:
+1 Dependency on McDonalds attached to:
-3 Evoc
-3 Thaum
-1 Sight
-0 Soulgaze
-0 Wizard's Constitution
-2 Refinement
---
-8 TOTAL

The FD has 9 attached but needs 5, so the wizard gain 2 hunger milds (assuming you get half as many).

Most scenes will require 3-5 refresh worth of powers (evoc+ref or thaum+ref); the character should have discipline 5, which should hold up well.  On average, the character will need to burn one of the spare milds every other scene, then buy a couple of bags of extra value meals (super-sized!) every four scenes or so.

The existing Feeding Dependencies deal in death, which carries potentially significant disadvantages -- for example, legal entanglements or vengeful relatives.  What's the worst case for McDonalds Dependency?  Same thing for a number of others.  The "people singing about you" might be one of my favorites, since you can simply have the other players have their character's sing your theme song in battle and you're guaranteed golden...

[Sanctaphrax]

Actually that 9 Refresh counts as 6 Refresh because McDonalds is a weak need.

Nonetheless, good point.

I just realized that putting both combat and noncombat effects under the same Dependency is rather unfair.

The idea here is that McDonalds dependency, though a weakness, is a smaller weakness than blood dependency. So you get a rebate, but a smaller one.

The worst case for McDonalds dependency is that you're in the middle of nowhere and McDonalds is not available. So you die or lose Powers or otherwise get messed up.

As for singing, if the other players want to waste their actions/time singing that's enough of an inconvenience for me.

So, any suggestions for improvements?