WOJ: Hexenwufl solved

[Thork]

What makes you think that? Also, zombies in the Dresdenverse don't have independent thought like Cowl does.

Sorry, I meant that as a joke/silly theory. The joke would have been that Cowl was a blampire or something similar and acting as his own walking vessel of necromantic energy. This theory doesn't actually work because Cowl draws on life magic just like Harry, and if he were a blampire he couldn't do that.

[Ms Duck]

Sorry, I meant that as a joke/silly theory. The joke would have been that Cowl was a blampire or something similar and acting as his own walking vessel of necromantic energy. This theory doesn't actually work because Cowl draws on life magic just like Harry, and if he were a blampire he couldn't do that.

which is why quacky folks sepculate he is a deep one/ fomor. They had notable wizards in lovecraft, and can often pass for humans.

[Phariah]

well i have always thought that the 3 Kemmlerites all specialized in differing areas of Necro magic. Grevane animation of zombies and physical dead, CT mind magic/ spirits/ ghosts, Cowl i am thinking pure Necro magic/ Black magic to power himself ( sort of like the necro magic EBob released into Dresden ). i mean Kumori was never drumming anything and never really used magic much. suppose he concentrated necro magic around her to act as his necro shield to get through the area.

Harry senses a taint when they first met, than when Cowl escapes by the book store Harry senses an increase in dark magic. that was making a gateway. suppose his specialty was summonings like that of demons and Outsiders?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

which is why quacky folks sepculate he is a deep one/ fomor. They had notable wizards in lovecraft, and can often pass for humans.

I thought Gard's description of Fomor magic in "Even Hand" made it sound quite unlike human magic, though; much more chaotic, and not something Harry would likely mistake for such.

[Thork]

which is why quacky folks sepculate he is a deep one/ fomor. They had notable wizards in lovecraft, and can often pass for humans.

Yeah I think there's strong odds that he's fomor, or more specifically, a human with heavy Fomor modifications -- he draws on magic that's definitely human, BUT we keep seeing mentions of "mildew" and similar things around his magic, and he keeps impressing Harry as human-but-not-quite-human.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

BUT we keep seeing mentions of "mildew" and similar things around his magic

I think that's a clue as to where he hangs out, not what/who he is.  or at least, the mildew reference i remember around Cowl is when he and Kumori disappear when faced by the Alphas in DB (and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN), and I think what that's meant to connect up with is the description of the place Peabody runs to at the end of TC.

and he keeps impressing Harry as human-but-not-quite-human.

I'm not recalling that off the top of my head, other than his voice sounding not particularly human, which I tend to read as part of his disguise.  I don't think Harry has that reaction to his magic anywhere, anyway. Am I forgetting something ?

[unsurmountable]

i think Ms. Duck's explanation makes the most sense.  We have WoJ that Erlking is only one of several beings that can call the wild hunt.  Given that this is also true outside the dresdenverse (in early mythology) and that in early mythology Odin is one of those beings that can call the Hunt, it's reasonable to assume Odin has that same power in the dresdenverse.  Add to that Erl's comment that he messes with those who messes with his hunt and you have a reasonable cause for Erl to mess with Odin's plans, (i.e. Marcone).  Add to that Erl's domain is on the other side of the FBI building and you now have a pretty solid case for it being Erl.  Plus the magical item here turns people into one of the greatest hunters known to human kind, that right in line with the way Erl likes it.

[Phariah]

I think that's a clue as to where he hangs out, not what/who he is.  or at least, the mildew reference i remember around Cowl is when he and Kumori disappear when faced by the Alphas in DB (and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN), and I think what that's meant to connect up with is the description of the place Peabody runs to at the end of TC.

I'm not recalling that off the top of my head, other than his voice sounding not particularly human, which I tend to read as part of his disguise.  I don't think Harry has that reaction to his magic anywhere, anyway. Am I forgetting something ?

Neuro!!!!!   *hugz* woots i missed ya 

[Mr. Death]

(and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN)

It could be a veil, just not one limited to sight. Just like Harry reformats his shield spell to cover different types of energy beyond kinetic, I don't see why a wizard of Cowl's caliber couldn't put up a veil to mask his scent and sound as well as sight.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

It could be a veil, just not one limited to sight. Just like Harry reformats his shield spell to cover different types of energy beyond kinetic, I don't see why a wizard of Cowl's caliber couldn't put up a veil to mask his scent and sound as well as sight.

And bodyheat as well.  I suppose it's not impossible that Cowl is strong enough and skilled enough to do that, but it seems a very complex thing to do pretty much instantly, and I'm not seeing why the mildew smell would show up when a veil was cast but not be mentioned before, so I still find the "quick gate out" explanation more plausible; I also think some kind of really quick and sneaky gate out is pretty much necessary for Cowl to have survived the end of DB.

[Ms Duck]

It could be a veil, just not one limited to sight. Just like Harry reformats his shield spell to cover different types of energy beyond kinetic, I don't see why a wizard of Cowl's caliber couldn't put up a veil to mask his scent and sound as well as sight.

its mentioned in changes that Molly improved her veils enough to hide from werwolves; in fact, she does so in GS at the scene with mort.

now, how she does this without breakign the third law is a much debated topic 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Oh, OK, I'd not remembered that bit. Suppose it could have been a veil after all.

[Thork]

I think that's a clue as to where he hangs out, not what/who he is.  or at least, the mildew reference i remember around Cowl is when he and Kumori disappear when faced by the Alphas in DB (and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN), and I think what that's meant to connect up with is the description of the place Peabody runs to at the end of TC.

I'm not recalling that off the top of my head, other than his voice sounding not particularly human, which I tend to read as part of his disguise.  I don't think Harry has that reaction to his magic anywhere, anyway. Am I forgetting something ?

The main reason I suspect Cowl is Fomor is actually that he says "Thrice I ask and Done" to Harry, and that's a Fae formulation. We know the Fomor have Fae traditions, so that coupled with the nonhuman voice, human magic, and mildew, all together make me think human with Fomor modifications. His extreme magical oomph is also an argument here -- he's stronger than Ebenezer, much less Harry, so he's likely done something dark to get that power.

I see what you're saying about how the mildew reference is possibly a clue as to where rather than what, but all the "mildew"-referenced portals are opening from and (and therefore into) dramatically different places -- either they're using a different kind of portal into the nevernever such that they can zap themselves over into a different nevernever, and that different nevernever smells musty and mildewed no matter where you go in it, OR they can open an Odin-style teleportation portal whenever they want to, OR there's something in Cowl's (and perhaps Peabody's) magic that's tainted, and that taint of mildew is expressed in the way they open portals.

Either way, I read the mildew/water/damp connection as a likely connection to the Fomor, mainly because if the Fomor haven't shown up at all prior to Aftermath, that's bad plotting on Butcher's part, and I don't see him doing that; villains that major must have been foreshadowed somewhere. Plus, having Cowl conceal his identity because he's Fomor (or fomor-modified human) is a nice twist on the "expected" reveal that if we see a disguised villain, he "must" be someone we've already seen.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The main reason I suspect Cowl is Fomor is actually that he says "Thrice I ask and Done" to Harry, and that's a Fae formulation.

I'm not sure it's significantly more a Fae formulation than wizards use in general, though, cf Harry setting three conditions on his agreement to become Winter Knight in Changes, or the questions he gets from Lea in GS.  (I kind of tend not to notice that as a Fae-specific thing because it's not exceedingly rare to find that sort of pattern in spoken English in Celtic countries, it was the sort of thing people around me when I was growing up might plausibly say.)

I see what you're saying about how the mildew reference is possibly a clue as to where rather than what, but all the "mildew"-referenced portals are opening from and (and therefore into) dramatically different places -- either they're using a different kind of portal into the nevernever such that they can zap themselves over into a different nevernever, and that different nevernever smells musty and mildewed no matter where you go in it, OR they can open an Odin-style teleportation portal whenever they want to, OR there's something in Cowl's (and perhaps Peabody's) magic that's tainted, and that taint of mildew is expressed in the way they open portals.

That argument seems to me to contain the assumption that Earthly geography maps consistently into the NN, and I think the evidence in the books argues otherwise; in GP Harry gets into Bianca's house from fairly close to where Michael and Thomas leave the NN, but they end up in a strip club because Thomas has an affinity for such places; in WN the two portals opened into the Deeps in the final battle lead to wildly different parts of the NN.

I think Cowl in DB and Peabody in WN are more likely aiming for the same general region of the NN, possibly very close together, but that they can get there from pretty much anywhere in Earth.

Either way, I read the mildew/water/damp connection as a likely connection to the Fomor, mainly because if the Fomor haven't shown up at all prior to Aftermath, that's bad plotting on Butcher's part, and I don't see him doing that; villains that major must have been foreshadowed somewhere.

I'm inclined to disagree here too, both because halfway through the series does not seem too late to be introducing major players to me, and because having Sidhe-type Faerie seems to me to automatically imply something Fomorian-like as part of the same mythos so they've been implicitly set up since GP; it's no more bad plotting to my mind than not introducing angels loyal to Heaven until halfway through the series if there were explicitly Christian-mythos fallen angels several books earlier.

[Thork]

I'm not sure it's significantly more a Fae formulation than wizards use in general, though, cf Harry setting three conditions on his agreement to become Winter Knight in Changes, or the questions he gets from Lea in GS.  (I kind of tend not to notice that as a Fae-specific thing because it's not exceedingly rare to find that sort of pattern in spoken English in Celtic countries, it was the sort of thing people around me when I was growing up might plausibly say.)

Yeah, but in both those circumstances Harry is speaking with the Fae and so consciously adopting their lingo -- it's not something Harry just does when he's talking to, say, Kincaid, or Ebenezer, or Mavra. So I think it's a tipoff. Is there anywhere else in the series where we get that formulation and there isn't a Fae in the conversation?

That argument seems to me to contain the assumption that Earthly geography maps consistently into the NN, and I think the evidence in the books argues otherwise; in GP Harry gets into Bianca's house from fairly close to where Michael and Thomas leave the NN, but they end up in a strip club because Thomas has an affinity for such places; in WN the two portals opened into the Deeps in the final battle lead to wildly different parts of the NN.

Yeah, that's the assumption, or at least one possible assumption. The way I've read the books so far, there is a 1:1 map between Dresden's Prime Material Plane and the NeverNever -- it's just that there's a wild variation over distance, i.e, even moving an inch in 'reality" might take you to a wildly different place in the NN. The main evidence for such a 1:1 map would seem to be the possibilty of guarding things from the NN side -- i.e., Lea's Garden, the Nazi Ghost Beach, etc. The other evidence would be the relative stability of Ways through the NeverNever -- You can't just wish up a spot near you that will take you to X place, you have to find a spot near you that opens up into a spot that's near the spot you want to get to in the NN, etc. Without some degree of stable correspondence and mapping, Harry's mother's amulet is an unnecessary waste -- you could just hop straight to wherever you wanted to go.

The way I read the passage with Thomas and Michael, they'd had to travel to a spot where there was a corresponding spot that Thomas had an affinity (the strip club). But I admit it's open to interpretation.

I'm inclined to disagree here too, both because halfway through the series does not seem too late to be introducing major players to me, and because having Sidhe-type Faerie seems to me to automatically imply something Fomorian-like as part of the same mythos so they've been implicitly set up since GP; it's no more bad plotting to my mind than not introducing angels loyal to Heaven until halfway through the series if there were explicitly Christian-mythos fallen angels several books earlier.

Fair point, but one that might seem stronger to someone raised in Celtic lore. For us ignorant Americans the Fomor are pretty darn esoteric -- most modern fantasy that talks about the Fae doesn't talk about the Fomor (Tolkien, Gaiman, Susannah Clarke, etc.).