Author Topic: Magitech???  (Read 3798 times)

Offline Belial666

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Magitech???
« on: April 26, 2012, 06:58:45 PM »
Wizards can do a lot of things with their magic. Why can't they replicate technology with it? I.e. want cold/hot water? Bind a fire/ice elemental to your water supply or put a spell on the pipes to keep them hot or cold. Want to have an alarm or household security? Wards, animated dogs and the like are good. So why not extend this?

TV/Radio: build a golem/other construct similar to the stone guardians Ancient Mai is doing. Instead of the supernatural sense to detect evil intent/black magic, give them the supernatural sense to hear radio waves. And instead of supernatural strength and toughness, give them the ability to project visual and auditory illusions corresponding to the signals they hear. Presto, you got television/radio.

Cellphones: Take a big rock and carve out a few thousand tablets out of the same rock. Carve a different code/number on each tablet. When a wizard wants to contact another wizard, they use the tablets; since they are pieces of the same rock, they got a sympathetic link. And since they got unique numbers, a wizard that knows the number can cast a very simple communication spell on his own tablet and by focusing on said specific number contact a specific wizard.

Vehicles: Simplest way is to create a golem that looks like a car. A strong wizard could make zombie dinosaurs in a couple of hours. A carlike golem shouldn't be impossible to make if they spend an hour casting each day for a month. What middle-class guy wouldn't dream of a car that needs no gas, costs no money and only needs 30 man-hours to make from scratch?
For air vehicles, a propeller airplane that instead of engines and fuel uses summoned creatures on petals (or animated petals!0 for purely physical propulsion. A jumbo jet for example devotes 100+ tons to fuel alone. That's the equivalent weight to 1000-2000 zombies or equivalent summons. What kind of horsepower can 2000 inhumanly strong zombies provide? Imagine selling such a plane that doesn't need any fuel to a modern aviation company.

Nuclear weapons: fusion weapons are acheived by exposing tritium (and potentially deuterium or even hydrogen) to enough raw heat so it gets to fusion temperatures. This is usually done by exploding a small fission bomb very close to the tritium supply but can also be done by shooting a mass of fusion fuel with lasers (i.e. in an inertial containment fusion device). So, how about 100+ wizards all making a boom potion each and putting said potions around a supply of fusion fuel, trigerred to go off all at once? All that is needed is providing enough energy to acheive fusion.

Offline atavistic

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2012, 09:38:28 PM »
On the small scale these little tricks are both possible and pretty ingenious.  I suspect there are plenty of wizards out there with hot water and good home lighting and entertainment features and maybe even indentured servants.  Good on them for outsmarting the hexing effects.

Large scale is a whole different story, especially in the strife ridden world of the DF.  Would Morgan want to carry around a magical spell conduit in his pocket just to talk with people if that same spell conduit might be used to conduit a spell that lights him on fire, or any other terrible spell in past his wards.  Wizards are hermits and paranoid for a reason, they know whats out to get them. Its just not safe on a wide scale.

For larger scale creations, making a car golem to drive yourself around probably fairly safe.  Making a car golem to drive someone else around, well lets just say having to call AAA when your car breaks down is much better then your car pulling a Christine while you're in it and not having the magical know-how to stop it. Or a car that breaks down when you drive over a river or through a running stream of rainwater.  Not even if Sam Jackson was coming with me would 'zombies on a plane' seem like a good travel plan.  Magic is by and large not a reliable force, it's greatly impacted by the world around it.

Power becomes a huge factor as well, magic doesn't create energy, it moves it, stores it or channels it from other sources.  Harry's force rings store kinetic energy, Elaine's chain draws in electrical power to loose lightning blasts, even Harry's fire spells draw heat from the surroundings to produce flame.  The magic vehicles are going to need power from somewhere.  Jumbo jets carry and burn hundreds of tons of fuel to fly as far and fast as they do, that's a lot of energy that has to be drawn up, captured and stored.  And done safely on top of that.  Harry worried a great deal about bringing Little Chicago on-line because it contained a terrifying amount of magic and thousands of man hours of construction, and it doesn't even actually move or do much, its just a focus for other magic.  A fully loaded freight train at normal traveling speed has as much kinetic energy as some of the early nuclear bombs (10+ kilo tons of TNT equivalent), mundane mass transit is far easier to achieve.

Construction time of magic machine is probably also much higher then 30 man hours, harry talks about building his staff and blasting rod as well as LC and they all take a great deal of time and they're relatively simple magical tools.  The components tend to be rare and expensive in their construction (he hired fae to build his containment circle, and once complained that he couldn't afford truly enchanted items).

The Wizard-fusion plan sorta runs into all these problems all at once.  Would you build 1% of a bomb that would be in someone else's control?  Would you want to make a potion designed to be a high explosive bomb in your lab by hand?  Magic requires a level of understanding about your topic in order for it to work, which is why biomancy isn't much better then surgery,  to build a wizard nuke, you need a practical working knowledge of the engineering of nuclear power plant and particle accelerator designs, getting that kind of training requires practical training and no wizard in their right mind is going to risk hexing some university slow poke nuclear reactor, or succeed in graduate research on quantum reactions when his presence hexes the experimental data into complete failure.  Even the Hex effect on the tritium sub-atomic behaviors will probably just result in a very wet kaboom without fusion even beginning. 
IF you really need a nuke sized magic explosion, pull a satellite out of orbit, or alter weather patterns or volcanic activity, or alter a few miles of gravitational pull to pancake a city block.  Dresden style magic is just ill suited to solving the world energy crisis or reducing the carbon footprint, or getting rich quick through honest pursuits.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2012, 10:02:44 PM »
Some forms of Mag tech were looked at for this hedonistic character:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22322.msg1290015.html#msg1290015

Richard

Offline Haru

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2012, 10:23:26 PM »
I've proposed before, that such things should easily be possible, though I suspect that wizards don't really try, because they usually have their stuff figured out when new technology comes out. Most wizards are older than most modern technology anyway, and they can't use it. Wizards like Ana who read up on things, despite the fact that they can't use them.

TV, Radio, Phones and the internet all have one thing in common: there is a data signal, that has to be interpreted somehow. Usually, that is done by electronic devices, but who says it has always have to be that way?

My proposition for a magitech computer was something like this:

You get an optical internet connection, so the magic involved does not mess up the electronic signals. Then you pretty much need to build your magical computer from scratch and teach it how to interpret and code the data you receive and send from and to the internet. Since everything you use on a computer follows a strict protocol, it should be possible to create a magical construct that can do so as well.

To display the data, you can use all kinds of things. A mirror comes to mind as the classic example. Or a bowl full of water magic liquidy stuff. Or a painting where the colors flow around to create the images.

We are going to need input devices as well. Some of the display items can probably be used as a sort of touchscreen. With a magically linked pen, you can write directly on the surface, so you won't need a keyboard or a mouse.

Cars:
I'd thought of a car as well, and I thought the easiest thing to do would probably something similar to Harry's force ring. You put up a windmill or a watermill, depending on what works in your area, and link it to the car, charging up the circular momentum, that you can access through the cars magical buildup. Maybe even better, if you create multiple items that you can charge up and store in the trunk, so when one of them is out of power, you can switch them and use a fresh one, while the others are loading up their power again. Though a car like this might work perfectly, imagine what happens if you drive two tons of magic on the freeway. You would be fine, but any other car would stop working.

Oh, and on a side note: I have had this one idea, where a wizard binds the spirits of a buffalo herd to the steam engine of a locomotive to get it running. The images that come with this idea are just too cool.

Cellphones:
I would probably do it a bit different. I would put up a basic communication spell, and I would create it in such a way, that any wizard can recreate it. The design would have 2 slots, one for the phones owner (the sim card, if you will), and one for an item to link it to another phone to call someone. One advantage is, that you don't have to worry about linking every phone to each other. Yes, you are going to need to carry the stuff around, but I think that is kind of a cool side effect. Plus, none two linked items will be the same, which will preserve the individualism the dresden verse magic has.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline Belial666

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 10:26:49 PM »
Magic gives lip-service to physics but only in broad strokes. For example, when you animate a zombie and make it strong enough to punch through steel doors or conjure a demon/fetch/whatever that can rip apart vehicles with its bare hands, I don't see the kinetic energy coming from another source of natural energy - it comes from the magic itself, the Nevernever or a spirit that powers it.

Secondly, even just moving around energy wizards can wield frightening amounts of power compared to mere mortals. Harry froze a significant portion of the marina - a hundred cubic meters of seawater or so - with a spell. Assuming the water was at 10 degrees celcius, that was one gigajoule of energy moved around - the output of a Westinghouse A2W nuclear reactor (or 35.000 shaft horsepower) for half a minute.

Third, regarding nuclear power, I was only talking about nuclear weapons. If you wanted a "reactor", simply have a wizard bore down with magic deep enough then put a long metal or stone line into the bore and enchant it to draw energy from the planet's inner heat. Presto, you got a magical geothermal reactor  - or a small artifical leyline, depending on how you see it. (this can be reflected in game mechanics by permanently summoning a "living stone pillar" creature with mythic recovery, to which then you could deal consequences in any future scene to power your ritual spells and it would regenerate by the next scene - a 50 shift summoning ritual should do the trick)

Offline Tsunami

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 09:53:27 AM »
Now i have this Picture in my Head...

Bob's Skull mounted on a tripod, projecting the internet through his eyes like a video projector... and Harry navigating via voice command...

"Damn it Bob... I told you to NOT follow every stupid popup. Especially not the kinky ones. You can watch porn on your own time."

Offline crystaril

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 10:24:53 AM »
My warden is a water/fire/spirit evocation specialist.  He's a bit of an odd duck, but it lets him do things like hang a fishbowl from the ceiling of his lab, when heat is applied to the liquid inside it glows (flourecent lighting! no messy candles for him.)  He has hot running water too. (an enchanted clamp around the showerhead, warms it to exactly the right temperature) and a real ice iceboxx of course but that's simple.

One of the party figured out how to make walkie-talkies. They all have a badge (the Warden deputized the party, they're helping him out basically,) and the badges are sympathetically linked, (with a built in tracking spell keyed to the individual in case one of them gets into trouble.)  One of the players figured out how to use the link back to the master badge to establish sound contact and he's been using it like that ever since.  Helps a lot with the no-cell-phones problem wizards have.

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 01:07:20 PM »
One of the party figured out how to make walkie-talkies. They all have a badge (the Warden deputized the party, they're helping him out basically,) and the badges are sympathetically linked, (with a built in tracking spell keyed to the individual in case one of them gets into trouble.)  One of the players figured out how to use the link back to the master badge to establish sound contact and he's been using it like that ever since.  Helps a lot with the no-cell-phones problem wizards have.

Your group made magic Star Trek commbadges. I think that deserves at least a golf clap if not a full fist bump. :D

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 01:35:14 PM »
Heh, I always wondered why Harry never made himself an enchanted item that uses fire (or intense light conjured with spirit, depending ) to attack at melee range using discipline, basically a the force rings but specced for RCV killing.

Or, if you look at it another way, a lightsaber.  Not so practical, but cool enough to take some of the sting out of not getting a Warden sword.
90% of what I say is hyperbole intended for humorous effect.  Don't take me seriously. I don't.

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 02:58:55 PM »
Heh, I always wondered why Harry never made himself an enchanted item that uses fire (or intense light conjured with spirit, depending ) to attack at melee range using discipline, basically a the force rings but specced for RCV killing.

Or, if you look at it another way, a lightsaber.  Not so practical, but cool enough to take some of the sting out of not getting a Warden sword.

Hehe. I'd guess because Harry's not particularly fireproof. The force rings can kick a RCV back to where he can flame on without getting fire all over himself from a crazed vamp at close range.

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 03:24:07 PM »
Hmmm… Maybe a specially shaped shield attuned solely to heat in the preferred shape of the blade?  That way you won’t set yourself on fire unless you botch your attack roll.   It’d probably be a lot of work, but the nerd in me is trying to figure out exactly how much effort would be too much to have a lightsaber and “lots of months” seems a small price to pay. 

To get back to the topic at hand, are you (OP) worried about the actual game mechanics of your devices or just brainstorming for backstory?

If you’re looking for mechanics I’d suggest a Lore stunt that allows the character to steal the Equipment trapping of Wealth for mundane arcane gadgets, provided the magical version apes the mundane version precisely (ie. if you want to drive with Discipline you’d need to buy it with refinements.) 
90% of what I say is hyperbole intended for humorous effect.  Don't take me seriously. I don't.

Offline Locnil

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 05:49:18 PM »
Would it be possible to bind spirits within technology, and having those spirits counteract the hexing effect?

Offline citadel97501

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 11:30:18 PM »
If you’re looking for mechanics I’d suggest a Lore stunt that allows the character to steal the Equipment trapping of Wealth for mundane arcane gadgets, provided the magical version apes the mundane version precisely (ie. if you want to drive with Discipline you’d need to buy it with refinements.)

I think that your right and a Stunt is probably the best bet for a mage who needs the convenience of modern day technology, so he spends some of his time to put together ways to get around Hexing. 

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 12:41:15 PM »
And then only if it comes up.  If all you want to do is start a scene with your dour warden getting choked up while his media-spirit projects up against the wall that’s not even worth a stunt IMO, it’s just color.

Quote
Would it be possible to bind spirits within technology, and having those spirits counteract the hexing effect?

Without adapting it?  Short term sure, we know that Harry can suppress his hexing (Larry Fowler show at the beginning of Death Masks, though obviously not perfectly) so I don’t see why you couldn’t call up a spirit to do the same for some important piece of tech. 

If you want the spirit to take up residence in the object you’d probably have to adapt it to make it more homey.  Also, it’s just cooler.  Why bother binding an actual horse spirit into your vintage Mustang if you aren’t going to replace the engine with a rats’ nest of gold wire, crystals, tuning forks, etc. and rivet a horse skull to the hood?
90% of what I say is hyperbole intended for humorous effect.  Don't take me seriously. I don't.

Offline Locnil

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Re: Magitech???
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2012, 02:34:50 AM »
And then only if it comes up.  If all you want to do is start a scene with your dour warden getting choked up while his media-spirit projects up against the wall that’s not even worth a stunt IMO, it’s just color.
 
Without adapting it?  Short term sure, we know that Harry can suppress his hexing (Larry Fowler show at the beginning of Death Masks, though obviously not perfectly) so I don’t see why you couldn’t call up a spirit to do the same for some important piece of tech. 

If you want the spirit to take up residence in the object you’d probably have to adapt it to make it more homey.  Also, it’s just cooler.  Why bother binding an actual horse spirit into your vintage Mustang if you aren’t going to replace the engine with a rats’ nest of gold wire, crystals, tuning forks, etc. and rivet a horse skull to the hood?

Yup, that's what I thought. Technomancer Wardens FTW!