Keeping Players in the Dark

[Sanctaphrax]

You might want to consider a small houserule. Normally you can only compel characters, you could make it so that you can compel players too.

I wouldn't do that myself, but it might work.

[Silverblaze]

Dunno if this fits your idea for the NPC, but I have a sure fire way to fool them.

Fool the spy too.

Have his/her mind mucked with.  Everything he/she says he honestly believes.  It was a tactic used in Vampire the Masquerade games.  Sleeper Agents.

Then one post hypnotic suggestion away will be a trigger word making the mole spill it's guts.  One more word puts the sleeper agent under.

Then empathy rolls would reveal...honesty.  Just need to have a plot point revealing the NPc as a sleeper agent.  This lets the players understand what happened and may create a sympathetic NPC spy afterward.

[CottbusFiles]

The problem is, you are railroading your players into the reveal. When we look at the fiction than moles get find out mostly before it's to late (Turn Coat). Your players need to have a (mechanical) chance to find this out everything else is railroading.

I still favour the compel idea because players can play hard in this direction and farm fatepoints and choose to not take the compell when they are happy with the situation.

[Mr. Death]

The problem is, you are railroading your players into the reveal. When we look at the fiction than moles get find out mostly before it's to late (Turn Coat). Your players need to have a (mechanical) chance to find this out everything else is railroading.

And I plan to give it to them. The whole purpose of this thread, as I said in the first post, is to maintain the surprise while also giving the players the chance to find out, mechanically.

[fantazero]

is there a chance your players can read this?
If you give us some story details we can think of better ways to gets around/bend/ or out right break "The Rules" so you can mess with them

He's some ideas I have

Tell PC the secret (kinda) ,that your guy is a Mole. BUT mislead this person so that he thinks the mole is a triple agent (Works for the Cia, pretends to double cross for KBG, but is actually working for CIA) . Or have it so the Mole has something so damning on him the player wouldnt dare tell or risk getting killed/beheaded/whatever

Or make it that everytime they get close to figuring it out, Ninjas attack.

If the Mole is a Wizard, make it so that he gives your groups Magical items (but the catch they dont know is, they also let him Track/listen to the group)
Show that your Mole is being "attacked" by the Bad Guy too. Take away any doubt.
Example.
Your Mole is the DunkinDoughnut Man, your bad guy is a Wizard. You see the Wizard Blowing up the Dunkin Doughnut mans Donut Shop. Tragic right? No turns out, the Doughnut man wanted to get out of the doughnut biz, teamed up with the wizard and split the insurance money. Your group could find this out by doing arcane and normal investigation on the scene (The Wizard used fire magic, but there were also a strange amount of gas cans in the shop)
You could also use academics skill to do research on the insurance policy of the doughnut man.
Will a group do that? I doubt it. That sounds boring. But its an option

[ways and means]

I just don't have the PC roll empathy so if they choose too and beat his deceit they work out something is wrong otherwise the traitor remains unknown and then I will leave prompts that something is not right every now and then. 

[fantazero]

I just don't have the PC roll empathy so if they choose too and beat his deceit they work out something is wrong otherwise the traitor remains unknown and then I will leave prompts that something is not right every now and then.

yeah. this.

if Tom the Warden walks in says, Hi, and you go, roll empathy. It'll raise eyebrows

I read this book on RPGs called Play Dirty. It was awesome and dealt with stuff like this

[UmbraLux]

I'm not a big fan of hiding information from the players - anything hidden is something they're not interacting with. 

That said, the surprise rolls (whether alertness or an empathy roll) are something I often deal with by asking for a roll or two at the beginning of the session.  I write the results down and, when we get to the part where it applies, I'll pass a note to anyone who saw something.  Any warnings from there need to be in character. 

[Orladdin]

I'm not a big fan of hiding information from the players - anything hidden is something they're not interacting with. 

That said, the surprise rolls (whether alertness or an empathy roll) are something I often deal with by asking for a roll or two at the beginning of the session.  I write the results down and, when we get to the part where it applies, I'll pass a note to anyone who saw something.  Any warnings from there need to be in character. 

That's a pretty great idea:  Roll it ahead of time.  They still got the roll, they can even decide if spending FP to prevent someone from misleading them is worthwhile, but the players aren't tipped off as to who!  You can tell them honestly someone is going to try and mislead them this session and still maintain the mystery.
I like it!  It just takes enough planning and foresight to do it at the beginning of the session. 

[Edit] On second thought, though, it makes it impossible for the players to meaningfully spend FPs.  They can't determine how their aspects apply to a given situation.

The inability to keep twists surprising for the players is actually looking like my one big beef with FATE. 

[DFJunkie]

Maybe I’m an odd GM, but I’ve never told my players to roll Empathy, they always ask to do so. 

If there’s still time between now and the time you want to introduce the mole you could always increase the incidence of social conflict in your game so it wouldn’t be odd to run one against a newcomer who isn’t necessarily distrusted.  One of the hallmarks of the DF books is that most of the people Harry interacts with have their own motivations for helping him, which run roughly parallel to Harry’s but are also somewhat divergent.  They try to help Harry while also maneuvering him to their benefit.  Introduce other NPCs who deal with the players on this level and your mole won’t stick out so much.

[eri]

That's a pretty great idea:  Roll it ahead of time.  They still got the roll, they can even decide if spending FP to prevent someone from misleading them is worthwhile, but the players aren't tipped off as to who!  You can tell them honestly someone is going to try and mislead them this session and still maintain the mystery.
I like it!  It just takes enough planning and foresight to do it at the beginning of the session. 

I agree. Brilliant workaround.

[Edit] On second thought, though, it makes it impossible for the players to meaningfully spend FPs.  They can't determine how their aspects apply to a given situation. 

But you can, can't you? As the GM? Just tell them "Up to three of your aspects could be used for this throw in my opinion", and let them decide if they think if it's important enough by the small clues given them. The fact that you can tell them how many (and possibly which) aspects they could use would also give them some clues, but won't neccessary give the game away.

Maybe I’m an odd GM, but I’ve never told my players to roll Empathy, they always ask to do so.

I don't think that depends as much on the GM as it does on the players. The general paranoia level is something you have a hand in of course, but it's the players who act on it.

[Mr. Death]

That said, the surprise rolls (whether alertness or an empathy roll) are something I often deal with by asking for a roll or two at the beginning of the session.  I write the results down and, when we get to the part where it applies, I'll pass a note to anyone who saw something.  Any warnings from there need to be in character. 

The main issue with that is, as I learned once again last night, I never really know when or if such rolls are going to be needed. I've had sessions where something I expected to get to was delayed or never happened at all.

@DFJunkie: Yeah, blame lack of foresight on my part, but the mole's already around. I keep trying to work in more social conflicts like that (since one player has a character built to be a socialite), but I'm not quite used to it yet.

Thanks for the advice all around, guys. I'm a little sorry to say, though, that the scenario pretty quickly hopped the rails from what I expected, making it so the one thing the mole would have to outright lie about is a moot point. I'll be sure to keep this thread in mind for future occasions, though.

[DFJunkie]

Bear in mind that just because it says "traitor" in your notes doesn't mean he has to be.  It's not cheating if the GM is doing it.

[fantazero]

example of what to do
PC I want to roll for Empathy
GM find a Scene or Character Aspect to tag that you can persuade them not to)

[Orladdin]

Maybe I’m an odd GM, but I’ve never told my players to roll Empathy, they always ask to do so...

That's what I find in my games, as well, and my preferred way to run the game.  I tend to give new players a warning I'm doing it this way, though, because...

example of what to do
PC I want to roll for Empathy
GM find a Scene or Character Aspect to tag that you can persuade them not to)

There's actually quite a bit of evidence in FATE to support that players shouldn't have to *ask* to roll empathy.  The system is very much based on having nothing "behind the screen;" unlike other games, including D&D.

If there are hidden rolls it precludes the proper (narrative) use of Fate Points to boost them.  If players are required to be wily for their characters, what happens when a trusting person wants to play a wily character?

Again; just some existential quandaries with FATE.