Keeping Players in the Dark

[Mr. Death]

So, in my game, I'm starting a scenario where I'm planning to have a badguy NPC working as a mole within the party. Now, mechanically, this is easy enough: He's got Deceit at the top of his skillset, stunts to boost that in a few ways, and several fate points to spend.

The thing is, I'm big on preserving drama and keeping the game as narratively interesting as it is mechanically interesting. I.e., when it's revealed he's a badguy, I want the players to be as surprised as the characters, or at least near enough to it.

So, any advice on letting the characters potentially figure it out via Empathy rolls, while keeping the players from figuring out, "Okay, I'm rolling Empathy to see if this guy's on the level. I guess that means he's not."?

[Sanctaphrax]

Have them roll Empathy for people who aren't doing anything nefarious, just to get an impression of their personalities.

Even that's somewhat flawed, though. FATE in general doesn't do this stuff very well. The FP spending rules tend to assume a certain level of transparency.

[Orladdin]

Sanc beat me to the post button, but what I wrote below is somewhat similar...  Let them know they're rolling to discover deception, but don't tell them what the deception is.  Likewise, you could simply compel them whenever they would have a chance to uncover his lies.  If they want to try and buy it off, escalate.  It is the big bad of the game we're talking here.

Here's what I wrote before:
Put another NPC in the party that doesn't seem "on the level" that actually is; he's just really not a likeable guy.  Make sure he's involved in whatever discussions the mole is, and players will immediately think they're rolling empathy on the "smelly" NPC companion.  When they finally find out he's a decent guy, it'll be egg on their faces for using the OOC info that they were rolling Empathy.


If/when they ask what they're rolling for (to determine if they want to boost with FPs) simply reply "you are rolling Empathy to attempt to uncover someone's hidden motives in this conversation," or something equally descriptive while not giving something away.

[Orladdin]

Even that's somewhat flawed, though. FATE in general doesn't do this stuff very well. The FP spending rules tend to assume a certain level of transparency.

Yeah, it's one of the things I will hand-wave occasionally if it's important enough to the "fun" or "wow" in the game.  It should be done in moderation. 

The thing is, I'm big on preserving drama and keeping the game as narratively interesting as it is mechanically interesting. I.e., when it's revealed he's a badguy, I want the players to be as surprised as the characters, or at least near enough to it.

When you, as the story teller, break the rules, it should be in the interest of increasing fun for everyone involved.

[sinker]

One of the other things you could do is simply compare their empathy scores to his deceit score (as if both parties had rolled zero). If they are close then you can give them some hints ("He seems like he's holding something back" or "You aren't sure he's quite on the level").

Just to be clear do you want them to uncover the mole, or do you just want to give them the chance before things go to hell?

Either way some foreshadowing (related to the player's actions, not specifically to the NPC) might make the players paranoid enough to begin questioning everyone.

[Richard_Chilton]

One thing to focus on is how little he would be lying or otherwise trying to deceive the players.

Take Peabody as the stereotypical mole.  Over 99% of the time Peabody just did his job.  He ordered the files, he oversaw what he was supposed to oversee, he acted as the administrative assistant he was.

If he wasn't so good at that job, he wouldn't have been so useful.

He didn't go around trying to win people's trust.  He never told them that something they reported to him would be confidential - in fact most people would know that he would add that information to the right files and issue a report on that if asked to.  He wasn't anyone's buddy and he didn't try to be.  Even the few people above him saw him as a self important bureaucrat, but as long as he got the job done that was all they cared about.

In short, he was the perfect mole because he didn't have to go around lying all of the time.  All he had to do was his job plus a few other things on the side.  Being Good or better at Deceit and having an Aspect or two relating to being undercover - that's really all a mole needs.  Especially if he is in a support role - because who would suspect Dave the Mechanic or the guy who works the lunch counter of being a mole? The boss' secretary is another good role - practically the same as Peabody's was.  As is Jack from the archive - the guy who scans in all the after action reports.

Richard

[Orladdin]

One thing to focus on is how little he would be lying or otherwise trying to deceive the players.

Take Peabody as the stereotypical mole.  Over 99% of the time Peabody just did his job.  He ordered the files, he oversaw what he was supposed to oversee, he acted as the administrative assistant he was.

If he wasn't so good at that job, he wouldn't have been so useful.

He didn't go around trying to win people's trust.  He never told them that something they reported to him would be confidential - in fact most people would know that he would add that information to the right files and issue a report on that if asked to.  He wasn't anyone's buddy and he didn't try to be.  Even the few people above him saw him as a self important bureaucrat, but as long as he got the job done that was all they cared about.

In short, he was the perfect mole because he didn't have to go around lying all of the time.  All he had to do was his job plus a few other things on the side.  Being Good or better at Deceit and having an Aspect or two relating to being undercover - that's really all a mole needs.  Especially if he is in a support role - because who would suspect Dave the Mechanic or the guy who works the lunch counter of being a mole? The boss' secretary is another good role - practically the same as Peabody's was.  As is Jack from the archive - the guy who scans in all the after action reports.

Richard

Yeah; this is the best way to do it, if you can set it up; if he's not required to lie, they're not given a role.  It's just like with the fae.

"Grimalkin, what is your task?"  "To guide you safely to the chamber of the Cold Lady."  <some time later...>  "Harry, he didn't say he had to lead us back out again."  <distant laughter>

[Mr. Death]

Have them roll Empathy for people who aren't doing anything nefarious, just to get an impression of their personalities.

Even that's somewhat flawed, though. FATE in general doesn't do this stuff very well. The FP spending rules tend to assume a certain level of transparency.

That's a good idea, but it's probably undermined by the fact I haven't really had them do that up to now. And yeah, the fate point spending makes it tough to sneak things by.

Put another NPC in the party that doesn't seem "on the level" that actually is; he's just really not a likeable guy.  Make sure he's involved in whatever discussions the mole is, and players will immediately think they're rolling empathy on the "smelly" NPC companion.  When they finally find out he's a decent guy, it'll be egg on their faces for using the OOC info that they were rolling Empathy.

If/when they ask what they're rolling for (to determine if they want to boost with FPs) simply reply "you are rolling Empathy to attempt to uncover someone's hidden motives in this conversation," or something equally descriptive while not giving something away.

I wish I had asked this sooner, cuz that's a good one too. Unfortunately, it's too late to change the parameters of the start of the scenario.

One of the other things you could do is simply compare their empathy scores to his deceit score (as if both parties had rolled zero). If they are close then you can give them some hints ("He seems like he's holding something back" or "You aren't sure he's quite on the level").

That might be the simplest way--looking at their sheets, the Mole's deceit is 5 (up to 7 with the Honest Lies stunt), and the highest Empathy a PC has is 3.

Just to be clear do you want them to uncover the mole, or do you just want to give them the chance before things go to hell?

The way the Scenario's laid out in my mind, I'd rather they didn't, but I want them to have the chance to.

Either way some foreshadowing (related to the player's actions, not specifically to the NPC) might make the players paranoid enough to begin questioning everyone.

Hm, I could push that angle. Part of the scenario is a case of mistaken identity meant to make a newly-introduced PC seem like the badguy for a bit to one of the other PCs.

@Richard: Yeah, I was planning to have him tell mostly the truth (partly because when I initially planned the scenario, the party included a dog who could discern lies--hence the Honest Lies stunt, he was meant to lean on that a lot). Though he's newly introduced to the main group of PCs, so he hasn't had time to develop that kind of "always in the background" alibi, for them at least.

One thing that popped into my head was just rolling for the PCs without their knowledge--but that feels a little wrong, not least because they wouldn't get the chance to spend fate points to make the rolls without me telling them what was going on.

[sinker]

The way the Scenario's laid out in my mind, I'd rather they didn't, but I want them to have the chance to.

Then I wouldn't worry about it. Compare scores, note that they're fairly outclassed, hand them all a Fate point (compelling their lack of empathy), and say "this is going to be fun".

One thing that popped into my head was just rolling for the PCs without their knowledge--but that feels a little wrong, not least because they wouldn't get the chance to spend fate points to make the rolls without me telling them what was going on.

Yeah, comparing scores is the same idea, but simpler. Still has the same issue though.

[Tallyrand]

One thing that I would STRONGLY recommend is, if one of the characters at your table prides himself on reading people DO NOT DO THIS.  If you just arbitrarily set this NPCs ability to lie at a little higher than the PCs ability to detect it (again, if this is where the PC thinks he's awesome) you are effectively invalidating that character.

That being said, the best way to do this (although very difficult to pull off) in bring in another player to the game.  If you have a friend who can make a couple of Guest Star spots but isn't interested in joining the game long term ask him if he's willing to play the mole.  If you insert an NPC into the group they will be suspicious and likely not terrilby surprised if he turns no matter how on the level he seems to be.  It has nothing to do with how you run it, it's just how players have been trained to react.  It's like when you see Willem Defoe in a movie, you're always a little surprised if he turns out not to be evil.

[Richard_Chilton]

Then I wouldn't worry about it. Compare scores, note that they're fairly outclassed, hand them all a Fate point (compelling their lack of empathy), and say "this is going to be fun".

A extra FATE chip a session would be a great way to handle it.  That way you can point out that while they were fooled they received a benefit for being taking in.

Richard

[Mr. Death]

@Tallyrand: Yeah, I wouldn't even consider it if that was the case. I don't have any characters like that, aside from the aforementioned lie-sniffing dog who's no longer in the game anyway.

@Richard: It would be, if I didn't already compel the buggers so much they end up with almost more fate points than they can use.

[devonapple]

I'm not sure this is possible, but if one of the PCs has an Aspect about trusting people, or seeing the good in people, or something like that, maybe Compel that player to back up the NPC if push comes to shove.

[CottbusFiles]

I think your problem is, that you are thinking in the Framework of a scenario and not in scenes/situations. FATE isn't really a game that you play with an adventure in mind. One or two declarations can totally kill it and then burrow it deep in the ground to kill it again and then throw it into a vulcano.

Make the guy put Aspects on the group like "Trustworthy guy" and give them FP when you compel them. Don't try to fool the players, make it a fun experience for them.

[Mr. Death]

@devonapple: Yeah, unfortunately I don't have anyone with aspects like that, or that'd be a great way to do it.

@CottbusFiles: I've actually found that games run a lot better, at least with the groups I've been part of, if there is some kind of framework in mind. Granted, things can and do go off the rails, but having a plan going in helps me a lot when it comes to creating a cohesive experience.

Besides, I'm the GM, I don't have to let every declaration stick.

Getting fooled, at least for a little while, isn't going to stop them from having fun. And I think it'll be more satisfying for them if they manage to figure it out over the course of the narrative and gameplay rather than through the metagame.