Powers = Tools ?

[Viatos]

I'm sure that was not intentional.  Sometimes players need to look at the spirit of the rules and assume the writers just had an oversight.

The spirit of the rules is explicitly "do what thou wilt (so long as thou hast sufficient Refresh)". I agree that it wasn't intentional, but that's bad design and needs rebalancing. There's no reason players should have to ignore it, and there's no reason why any power should ever be off-limits to players.

The one template-tied power (Greater Glamours) is also, by the way, bad design. Someone made a power they couldn't balance, and rather then fixing it by changing how it works, got lazy and left it in. These are things that should be corrected. Preferably by errata, but I won't hold my breath, so realistically by houserules.

The solution is not "well, let's just take this one random thing and slap a no-PC tag on it". That undermines the core values of the system and lessens DFRPG as a whole.

If you can modify every "race" (fae, vampire, foo dog, uh...human..etc.) why ever play the base ones at all?  Why play a Fae that has a catch of iron?  Why not just play a human with glamours?  Why play a white court who feeds on emotions, when you cna just play a mutant who can incite lust or fear?  Then you don't have to worry about True Love or Courage shutting you down or protecting people.

First of all, you don't get to ignore Catches and such by switching template. You might not be bothered by Cold Iron, but maybe Ice is a problem now. True Love might not safeguard a target, but True Self-Awareness takes it place.

Second of all, people play templates because they want to. A changeling or White Courtier can be mechanically optimal without breaking template. Sometimes that's all someone is looking for. Sometimes they want to be a faerie or a vampire, end of story. Sometimes someone wants to play a living shadow with vampiric and fae traits both. It's just about preference.

I know the narrative isn't supposed to serve a purpose in game balance, but.. it seems it does.  If you step far enough from the narrative and setting there are no limits.  Ergo, there is no game balance.

This is nonsense. You are limited by your Refresh, as always. You never were limited by narrative. Even if you have an especially thickheaded GM who insists you only use the templates in the book, the Scion is one of those. You may freely create your own narrative without limitation and still expect game balance.

If someone wants everythign a Foo Dog does but wants to be a person...your first instinct isn't to ask them why they don't wanna play a foo dog?  I know the were form food dog works, in fact i like it but...

Because they like the mechanics of what a Foo Dog does without necessarily enjoying the narrative. Maybe they want to play a "hero"-type who can pay mental stress for bonuses and instantly raise people's awareness with a psychic equivalent of the Bark.  Foo Dog powers are just powers, like any other. Broken, but not inextricable from their context.

I apply the KISS and duck principles as well as occam's razor.

Best of luck! I personally don't think DFRPG is that kind of game. I've had great success with "How can I make this fun?", even if it does involve a little extra work from time to time.

[Silverblaze]

Someone could tell you "best of luck" with running or playing a game where everyone has carte blanche.

 As in I hope you never find problem players that you like in RL and will offend if you don't let them play what they want (yet still want some game balance). 

That is my issue, not yours.  I will say  though it can happen to anyone.

[Silverblaze]

This line of thinkign only applies to those who don't have a use for templates.  I know plenty of people do.

If there is no reason to use templates.  Why bother with the setting at all?  I'm sure some people don't, I guess.  I just find it odd that people want to play the DFRPG, if everything/most everything they play is either not in the cannon setting or modifies the cannon setting drastically.  There may be better systems to create the things they want.

[Mr. Death]

Thinking about it, you should be able to adapt and reflavor powers.

But...

The context and narrative of those powers should be retained in some form. If you're going to have something as powerful as ACAEBG, you might not have to be an agent of the White God wielding one of the Swords, but you should have some kind of super powerful being sponsoring that power, along with the rights and responsibilities governing it, if not equal to, then at least approaching the limitations and considerations a Knight of the Cross should have to face. Same with Sacred Guardian.

If someone wants ACAEBG, the GM should ask them, "Okay, which extremely powerful being is letting you use it?" If they want Sacred Guardian, it should be, "Okay, what part of the character's ancestry justifies it?"

In whatever case, the powers simply cannot be boiled down to their strength and cost--the description is as much a part of a power as the mechanical effect.

[ways and means]

This line of thinkign only applies to those who don't have a use for templates.  I know plenty of people do.

If there is no reason to use templates.  Why bother with the setting at all?  I'm sure some people don't, I guess.  I just find it odd that people want to play the DFRPG, if everything/most everything they play is either not in the cannon setting or modifies the cannon setting drastically.  There may be better systems to create the things they want.

Every game of DFRP is different from Butchers DF's and different people get different things from the setting, one character I want to play at some point is a Data Demon (demon born on the web) I know it is not book canon but I still want to play it in the modified Dresden files setting of whatever game I am playing at that time. Mind you I think each game makes there own canon and there own version of the setting and trying to follow the books to strongly could be a bad thing, if your PC are at Archangel during the attack then the it should be possible for Archangel to end differently IMO.

[Sanctaphrax]

If it's a valid compel, giving you fate points, for simply being unable to do something your concept doesn't support... taken to the logical extreme, it's going to get a little silly.

That's the point.

By giving compensation whenever concept causes a problem, you make it possible for people to play incredibly restrictive concepts like "Foo Dog" without screwing themselves.

If you buy off the compel, you narrate some way to communicate without talking. Maybe you scratch words into the ground.

The description is not a part of the power that must be preserved when reflavouring. If the power is well-written, there's no problem with getting rid of its original concept.

Not very attached to the canon setting. The fact that the system can operate outside of it is a good thing, in my eyes. And fortunately, making the system non-specific to the setting does not require you to make it any worse at running the setting.

There's nothing wrong with picking powers purely for mechanical reasons. (No wrong way to play, remember?) The game should not become ridiculous or unfun when you do it.

PS: What the heck does Sacred Guardian have to do with being a Foo Dog anyway? I don't recall Mouse ever doing anything that resembled it.

[Mr. Death]

It's that thing where he starts glowing in some kind of St. Elmo's Fire thing. It's only popped up once or twice in the series thus far.

I'm not saying that a reflavored power has to have the same description--just an equivalent one.

[Silverblaze]

This line of thinkign only applies to those who don't have a use for templates.  I know plenty of people do.

If there is no reason to use templates.  Why bother with the setting at all?  I'm sure some people don't, I guess.  I just find it odd that people want to play the DFRPG, if everything/most everything they play is either not in the cannon setting or modifies the cannon setting drastically.  There may be better systems to create the things they want.

I apperently wasn't clear.  I'm not sure how to get my point across any clearer.  Very close to giving up trying honestly.  Just take this group of people.

Person A: doesn't like the Dresdenverse vampires, Fae, monsters, or wizards.  Overall the setting isn['t for them.  They have agroup that wants to play this system.  They make a non cannon character because they don't care for it, but still want to play with friends.

Person B: doesn't like the Dresdenverse vampires, Fae, monsters, or wizards.  They do like the setting.  They make a non template character.

Person C: likes the Dresdenverse vampires, Fae, monsters, or wizards.  They make a template character and feel underpowered since custom powers and reskinned powers mixed on non template characters are usually more powerful.  There is no incentive to using a template.  This person finds that upsetting.

Person D: is a copy of Person A but also a malignant munchkin

Person E: is a copy of person B but is a bengin munchkin.

Person C: now wishes they made a different character 

Various persons have various concerns about the game...mainly person C.

Person F: is running the game and is in a bit of a pickle.  How does person F solve this problem?

I guess part of what i am pointing out is at this rate tehre is little point ot play cannon races etc.

Yeah; do what you want at your table.  Yeah you can reskin powers.  Anyone who read my first post in this thread knows I'm fine with both of those things.

I'm not fine with actualy cannon template beings getting left in the dust.  (Disclaimer: your story and players should be paramount to everything in the game...I just think ignoring cannon critters and template feels like anotehr setting may suit those players better.)

[Silverblaze]

How do you fix a character who played a character for a long time and was left in the dust, mechanically?  They matter to the story too much to make an all new character.

They may have follishly played a cannon archtype.
(foolishly, seriously foolishly so it seems at times)

They may have been awesome at the start, but can't justify buying the powers they need to get tougher.

[Sanctaphrax]

Person C: likes the Dresdenverse vampires, Fae, monsters, or wizards.  They make a template character and feel underpowered since custom powers and reskinned powers mixed on non template characters are usually more powerful.

What?

No they aren't.

Not if the powers are well written.

You seem to be under the impression that "no templates" means "take whatever is mechanically optimal". But it doesn't. If someone is going to do that when they have no template, they'll do it when they have a template as well. And they'll be equally strong either way.

I play with no templates, and only some of my characters are even slightly optimized. If I were to add templates to my game, all of my characters would look more or less the same except for one, and that one is not optimized at all.

And how does "glows like St. Elmo's fire" translate into "spends mental stress to boost attacks and defences and to satisfy Catches"?

[Mr. Death]

I meant in the books there's a part where Mouse does something that makes him able to hit supernatural creatures harder. The "like St. Elmo's Fire" just describes what it looks like.

There's got to be some reason that Nicodemus is scared of Mouse, and I doubt it's his ability to be an alarm clock on demand.

[Viatos]

Person C: likes the Dresdenverse vampires, Fae, monsters, or wizards.  They make a template character and feel underpowered since custom powers and reskinned powers mixed on non template characters are usually more powerful.

This never happens, though, since custom and reskinned powers are not more powerful on non-template characters. It's not an issue. Person C never feels unhappy, and goes on to have a great game with Person A and B, if his only concerns are how powerful his character is.

If he has narrative issues with Person B's Blue Court Vampire, that's a different thing entirely. Person C should probably lighten up in that case, since Butcher has noted there are several smaller Courts he hasn't introduced, and since in a kitchen-sink setting it's hardly unreasonable to make up your own breed of vampire.

EDIT: Also, let's please not throw the term munchkin around. It's as insulting and pointless as calling narrativists "drama queens". Understanding how to play a game well does not need a perjorative. Being good at chess doesn't make you a munchkin, and neither does being good at DFRPG. It's a skill, not a failing.

If someone uses that skill to be disruptive to the party, that's another thing entirely.

How do you fix a character who played a character for a long time and was left in the dust, mechanically?  They matter to the story too much to make an all new character.

They may have follishly played a cannon archtype.
(foolishly, seriously foolishly so it seems at times)

They may have been awesome at the start, but can't justify buying the powers they need to get tougher.

Well, the same way you help any player who's falling behind - ask them if they'd like help, and offer guidance as to how they can play more effectively. I have never actually had this problem in FATE, but it comes up a lot in systems with notoriously wonky balance like DnD. Roleplaying games do require skill and intelligence, but usually not too much.

And, of course, you can always make use of forums like this one to improve your playing.

I do have a question, though: what powers do you use to represent the cannon archetype? Channeling (Artillery)? I think a sentient cannon would be an interesting character, but I'm not really sure how you'd define them beyond the moment of bombardment.

I meant in the books there's a part where Mouse does something that makes him able to hit supernatural creatures harder. The "like St. Elmo's Fire" just describes what it looks like.

There's got to be some reason that Nicodemus is scared of Mouse, and I doubt it's his ability to be an alarm clock on demand.

I actually was surprised that Mouse doesn't have All Creatures are Equal. I think that would have been much more elegant then Sacred Guardian.

[Silverblaze]

what powers do you use to represent the cannon archetype?

Powers do not.

Templates represent cannon archtypes.

[Viatos]

what powers do you use to represent the cannon archetype?

Powers do not.

Templates represent cannon archtypes.

Oh, you don't...oh.

The word is canon. You keep saying cannon, which is a form of gunpowder-based artillery. I was making a joke.

[Silverblaze]

Oh, you don't...oh.

The word is canon. You keep saying cannon, which is a form of gunpowder-based artillery. I was making a joke.

Is it really? I had no idea.

The word is a typo.

 My sincerest apologies.

 You are quite correct I didn't get the joke.

 Again, my sincerest apologies.

Templates, not powers make archtypes.

Also in the spirit of typos.  Trolling and flaming makes me want to shoot people out of a canon. (see what i did there?)