Powers = Tools ?

[Sanctaphrax]

But not every system can be used for everything. Using Exalted to play the Dresdenverse would be a resounding failure. Using d20 to play a game of politics wouldn't work all that well. Using Unknown Armies to play your standard D&D setting would be awful.

Every system has limits. A generic system is one with few. And this one has few.

[Silverblaze]

But not every system can be used for everything. Using Exalted to play the Dresdenverse would be a resounding failure. Using d20 to play a game of politics wouldn't work all that well. Using Unknown Armies to play your standard D&D setting would be awful.

Every system has limits. A generic system is one with few. And this one has few.

I can agree there.

I guess what I'm saying, is that in my opinion.  Games with fewer limits do indeed fit more settings and genres. Certain systems fit certain settings/genres better than others.  I think DFRPG fits the Dresdenverse better than many things people try to apply it to.  I guess that is why I try to keep my game/s closer to the setting from the novels.  No one by any stretch has to do this, I just think it works better that way.   Just some insight into the way I think and post the way I tend to. 

Thinking of starting a thread to get to know fellow posters and their motivations better.

[Viatos]

I guess what I'm saying, is that in my opinion.  Games with fewer limits do indeed fit more settings and genres. Certain systems fit certain settings/genres better than others.  I think DFRPG fits the Dresdenverse better than many things people try to apply it to.

The reason this is hard to gauge, and why DFRPG is such a great generic system, is that Dresdenverse itself is almost as generic an urban fantasy as, well, Urban Fantasy.

You have three known varieties of vampire to fit traditionalists, the neogothic energy vampire, and the B-movie bat monster vampire. You have an additional unknown variety poised to take advantage of any number of Asian vampire myths. You have even MORE varieties confirmed but undescribed in case Butcher wants to bring in anything new he hasn't covered.

Undead of every variety. Four different plays on the werewolf myth, and countless variations of shapechanger including Skinwalkers and demonic One-Winged Angel types. Magic that explicitly fits every known magical paradigm, every elemental system, everything from the quiet ritualist Wicca to the DnD blaster sorcerer throwing fireballs and rays of disintegration. An alternate layer of reality included with a semi-known topography that contains all mythological takes on the faeries, and infinite realms beyond that to house whatever weird random entity comes in handy. The epic punk street wizard has a sidekick in the form of a mystical Asian guardian animal. There's a generic White God and the forces of Hell against it. There's Outsiders for your Lovecraft needs. There's a valkyrie with rune-magic. There are Dragons.

And on and on and on. It's a total kitchen sink, and since the DFRPG reflects this, it has to be incredibly generic to accommodate the entire range of urban fantasy - that's what Butcher draws from. And if you take the guns out of urban fantasy, you pretty much just have fantasy. Which can stretch, as we know, to cover pretty much everything else. So yeah, DFRPG goes great for any setting.

[Sanctaphrax]

Not quite any setting.

It's pretty great for urban fantasy, good for superheroes, requires a very small retool to work with traditional fantasy or sci-fi, and can handle a realistic modern game using only part of its system.

Collectively, the above genres represent the vast majority of published RPGs.

Unfortunately, its power-scale is limited at both ends. Neither Mab nor a common insect is easily doable in DFRPG.

And DFRPG doesn't do the really weird stuff all that well.

Fortunately, the system is easily hackable and if you really want to you can use Aspects for everything. So the system's limits can be pushed pretty far if you want.

[Becq]

Just a rather minor and quite probably overly-nitpicking point:

FATE is generic.  DFRPG really isn't.  DFRPG is a setting-specific mod of an (as-yet unpublished, but presumeably suitably generic) FATE 3.0 game.  You can certainly adapt the DFRPG rules to other non-DF or quasi-DF sorts of games (and in some cases, with few changes required such as tossing out the Laws), but what you are really doing is adapting the FATE 3.0 rules, possibly re-using some DFRPG-specific mechanics in the process.

[Sanctaphrax]

Prove it.

Or at least provide some piece of evidence for what you just said.

Because all you have there is blind assertion.

[Silverblaze]

Prove it.

Or at least provide some piece of evidence for what you just said.

Because all you have there is blind assertion.

Careful.  I've asked for proof on here and been told it isn't possible.  For example: extra mental stresses vs refinement.

[Sanctaphrax]

I provided evidence, pretty good evidence. That's what you do when full proof is impossible.

[Richard_Chilton]

I provided evidence, pretty good evidence. That's what you do when full proof is impossible.

Okay, here's some evidence:
They spent seven years working on the game.  After advertising it as being available in 2006, they blew that self imposed deadline.  Rather than publish on time (as countless other companies, from White Wolf to Microsoft have done) they went back to scratch and kept working at it until they had a game that could accurately portray the DV.  That's four more years of work, four years without sales, when they could have published something that almost kind of worked like the DV does.

And the product they came up with is very different from SotC or other flavours of FATE 2.0 - because the game had to change to fit the world.

Is that enough evidence for you?

Richard

[Tedronai]

No, the fact that it took a long time for the developers of this game to be satisfied with their product is not meaningful evidence that the setting is an integral component of the system's rules.

[Richard_Chilton]

I believe I addressed that comment to Sanctaphrax.

But since you commented:
They were not working a the system - SotC is a wonderful variant of FATE 2.0 and (from their blog) they thought it would do for Dresden (which is why they announced a ship date).  They found that the generic system didn't work for the DV so they started from scratch.

I.E. They redesigned the system around the setting.

If you don't accept that, then there's no way I can convince you.

But if someone wants a bit more evidence, look up at one of the sticky threads.  When asked about the system the answer was:

You're welcome to use the setting material and adapt it however you see fit. But please, let's avoid making this a thread about bitching about systems. 99% of the Internet is for that (and is about that, honestly); let's make this place the 1%.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Could you explain the quote? I don't follow it's relevance.

Anyway, Tedronai is right; a long development cycle does not mean that a game is non-generic.

But the long time taken to modify SotC does mean (assuming that nothing weird is going on) that at least one of SotC and DFRPG is non-generic.

I posit that the one is SotC, which so far as I can tell does not model supernatural powers very well. I'm still in the process of reading it, though, so I could be surprised.

SotC also seems flawed in a few other ways. It feels more rigid than DFRPG. So far, DFRPG seems like an improvement. Which makes sense, since it was made by people who were undoubtedly looking to improve upon the failings of SotC.

[UmbraLux]

I call FATE a "core" system rather than "generic".  While it's core subsystems stay largely the same across implementations not much else does.  SotC, Diaspora, DFRPG, and Trifold FATE (the versions I've read) are all very different in detail.  I have yet to read any two versions which are mechanically identical outside of the core systems.  It's a lot like Savage Worlds in starting from a common framework and building setting specific add-ons.

[Richard_Chilton]

Could you explain the quote? I don't follow it's relevance.

Sure.  It's basically saying "If you don't like our system then throw out the system and play your favourite system in the setting we've laid out." - emphasing that the setting is the important part of the game.

Anyway, Tedronai is right; a long development cycle does not mean that a game is non-generic.

So it's not enough evidence for you.  I assume you've read the blog post explaining why the game is late - so since you won't accept that evidence there's not much more to talk about.

But the long time taken to modify SotC does mean (assuming that nothing weird is going on) that at least one of SotC and DFRPG is non-generic.

I posit that the one is SotC, which so far as I can tell does not model supernatural powers very well. I'm still in the process of reading it, though, so I could be surprised.

Close, but no cigar.  Supernatural powers are found at the top of stunt trees.  Check out Spirit of the Season - it has several magic users with powers.

SotC is the more generic one.  It was written as a "let's do something a bit simpler to start with, then port the rules into DFRPG" project.  It's basically FATE 2.0 - but it doesn't do the DV well.  Which is why they had to rewrite things when it the version of DFRPG that they had in 2006 couldn't wasn't world specific enough.

SotC also seems flawed in a few other ways. It feels more rigid than DFRPG. So far, DFRPG seems like an improvement. Which makes sense, since it was made by people who were undoubtedly looking to improve upon the failings of SotC.

No, they weren't looking to improve on SotC,  They were looking to make the DFRPG - a game modeled on the DV.

There's a link to a blog post in one of the stickies above that explains some of the delays in getting the game out.  If you haven't read it yet, then read it.

And if the above isn't enough evidence for you then I doubt anything will be...

At least until FATE 3.0 comes out and we see the generic version of the rules that they wrote after doing the DFRPG.

Richard

[Becq]

Prove it.

Or at least provide some piece of evidence for what you just said.

Because all you have there is blind assertion.

Was this responding to my post?  If so, I'm surprised that it isn't fairly self-evident.  It seems silly to try to offer "proof" of this, however, if you insist:

Assertion 1 (FATE is generic):

Fate is a story-oriented roleplaying game system. Though it is a full-fledged standalone system, Fate can also be incorporated into a variety of popular roleplaying systems.

Because Fate is designed to be plugged into a setting and reflect its specifics...

One might also look at the multiple sample magic systems, each tailored to different game worlds, as evidence.  Interestingly, one of them ("Interpretive Magic: Sorcery on a Budget") is evidently a (very) early prototype of a Dresden-style magic system.

Assertion 3 (DFRPG is a mod of FATE):

So, this game is built on a free core system called Fate (www.faterpg.com). It seems a good choice—flexible, dramatic, fairly popular, FREE. Rather than reinvent the wheel, we figured we’d just modify the hell out of it for our purposes.

Assertion 2 (DFRPG is setting-specific):

the Dresden Files ROL E P L A Y ING G AME

(Note: I'm not responsible for the formatting except for the bolding, other than that I just cut-n-pasted it exactly as it appears in the PDF.)

Whether you’re a champion of God, changeling, vampire, werewolf, wizard, or plain “vanilla” mortal human being, this volume of The Dresden Files RPG gives you all the rules you need to build characters and tell your own stories in the Dresdenverse.

Together with Volume Two: Our World, The Dresden Files RPG: Your Story gives you everything you need to make your own adventures in the thrilling and dangerous world of New York Times best-selling author Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files series!

Based on The Dresden Files Books by Jim Butcher

In a roleplaying game (or RPG), you and the rest of the group imagine fictional scenarios and events, and then play them out. Because this is the Dresdenverse, these scenarios will involve solving or resolving supernaturally-related crimes or problems in a city of your choice—it could be your home town, it could be some place you’ve never been.

Assertion 4 (DFRPG is "based on" an as-yet unpublished, but presumeably suitably generic FATE 3.0 game):

Well, I'll admit that this is technically incorrect, since "based on" (or "mod of" as I originally stated) implies that there is an existing product, which is not true.  However, DFRPG is being "genericized" to produce the upcoming FATE3.0 (aka FATE CORE) rules, per http://www.faterpg.com/about-fate-core/.  Note that "genericized" is not my word:

•Additional material “genericized” from the Dresden Files RPG

Evil Hat has released the first version of Fate 3.0 in the form of Spirit of the Century, and has also released The Dresden Files RPG. Both feature major revisions to the system, and will lead to a release of a revised core rule-set, which we hope to provide — free as always — once the Dresden Files RPG is completed, on the Official FateRPG Website.

And, if you go all the way back to the initial launch of the dresdenfilesrpg website, back in 2004, you find that the intention of the DFRPG has been to provide a setting-specific game all along:

The Dresden Files RPG is scheduled for release in the summer of 2006. Fred Hicks and Rob Donoghue, the co-designers of Fate, will write the game. The single core book will provide all players will need and more, to run their own games in the setting.

(Note: Clearly there are several facts contained in that sentence that have since proved inaccurate, but the intention stated is clear.)

Assertion 5 (You can adapt the DFRPG rules to other non-DF or quasi-DF sorts of games):

Well, if you look through these forums, you'll find a number of examples of people doing just this; I'm not going to bother pinpointing them.

Assertion 6 (By modding DFRPG, you are modding FATE3.0):

This follows logically from Assertion 4.

I hope this helps!