Does the DresdenVerse default to Ultimate Good or Ultimate Evil?

[Tedronai]

It is crucial to character creation when playing with the RAW.

This is so absurdly fallacious that I'm honestly shocked you included it here.

As for how a game works when there are no templates, it really depends on the group.

Assuming the group follows the rest of the RAW (most notably including the requirement that powers be justified in light of the characters' aspects), and cooperates for the good of the story and the fun of everyone involved rather than trying to 'win' or otherwise 'game the system', then the result is more-or-less as I have described: negligibly different.

Then again, if the group DOESN'T follow the rest of the RAW, or work together, and includes players that engage in active acts of sabotage (ie. try to 'win'), then it doesn't really matter whether they're using templates.


Although Sancta's construction paper comparison is rather apt.
Green is a calming colour, after all, and some players would benefit from that influence, just as some players benefit from the list of predefined options for playable supernaturals as represented by templates.

[Richard_Chilton]

Not quite true. By RAW, I can stack another template onto the Werewolf template without issue. So I can make Werewolves fly and shoot lightning from their buttocks without changing the rules at all.

Okay, I have to ask:
What template in the RAW can you add to Werewolf so that they can fly and shoot lightning from their buttocks?

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

A custom one. RAW includes the possibility.

Or maybe just Changeling or Emissary Of Power. Both permit you to take more or less whatever powers seem appropriate.

Failing that, Were-Form. You can turn into any animal, with Were-Form. Magical animals are no exception.

[Richard_Chilton]

A custom one. RAW includes the possibility.

But a custom template isn't part of the RAW.  By creating a custom template you are changing the rules.

Or maybe just Changeling or Emissary Of Power. Both permit you to take more or less whatever powers seem appropriate.

How do you go from the Were-Form template to "oh, I was always only half human"? Looking at the game I don't see adding Changeling, Scion, WCV, or WC Virgin onto a character's existing template.  Those are things that you are born and struggle with that heritage, not acquire mid play.

Which is what we were talking about - someone starting with a Were-Form Template and ending up with non-traditional powers.

Failing that, Were-Form. You can turn into any animal, with Were-Form. Magical animals are no exception.

To quote the template:
The animal in question isn’t supercharged or innately magical (other than the fact that it has a human intellect kicking around in its noggin), but with some practice, the shapeshifter can use it as easily as his human form, within the limits of what that animal can do.

So yes, magical animals are an exception.  You could create a custom template that allows weredragons etc but again, we would be departing from the RAW.

Richard

[Locnil]

How do you go from the Were-Form template to "oh, I was always only half human"? Looking at the game I don't see adding Changeling, Scion, WCV, or WC Virgin onto a character's existing template.  Those are things that you are born and struggle with that heritage, not acquire mid play.

You could say you were always such a being but simply didn't know about it until your powers manifested recently. Or just start the game with the template, possibly claiming you can shapeshift becuse of your lineage. Failing that, there's still Emissary of Power, for taking whatever powers you feel like.

[Richard_Chilton]

You could say you were always such a being but simply didn't know about it until your powers manifested recently.

This does not work with the setting.  Changelings and Scions start to get their powers during early adolescence (or earlier).  White Court Virgins get their powers during adolescence and become White Court Vampires the first time they have sex.

Billy the werewolf isn't going to wake up one morning, roll over and say to his wife "Guess what? We can't have sex again.  It seems that I'm a White Court Virgin".

Richard

[Locnil]

Say that you're a late bloomer.

[devonapple]

But a custom template isn't part of the RAW.  By creating a custom template you are changing the rules.

No, this isn't quite true in the spirit of the rules.

I feel that the template component of this debate is a big red herring.

[UmbraLux]

I don't have a lot of interest in the argument but, some things are being asserted as fact that I'm curious about...

This does not work with the setting.  Changelings and Scions start to get their powers during early adolescence (or earlier). 

Do you have a reference?

White Court Virgins get their powers during adolescence and become White Court Vampires the first time they have sex.

I thought it was 'first time they killed by feeding' - do you have a reference to sex causing the change?
-----
Regarding whether or not "custom" templates are intended, doesn't the book explicitly state making more / changing existing is expected?  Don't have time to research it myself at the moment.  :/

[Viatos]

But a custom template isn't part of the RAW.  By creating a custom template you are changing the rules.

It's part of the RAW. By creating a custom template, you remain within the rules and change nothing.

How do you go from the Were-Form template to "oh, I was always only half human"? Looking at the game I don't see adding Changeling, Scion, WCV, or WC Virgin onto a character's existing template.  Those are things that you are born and struggle with that heritage, not acquire mid play.

Yup, I was born a WCV Changeling Werewolf Emissary of Power. My childhood was complicated, but now it's awesome. Assuming I have the Refresh to pay for it, what's the problem? My mom was a WCV, and my dad was a Changeling who recently became a sidhe. Later, I figured out the spell to turn into a wolf, and signed on to be a servant of the prehistoric god Urrah, Hunting-Beast-King. My partner is a nephilim (Scion) possessed by seven angry voodoo ghosts who grant him Evocation for the elements of Darkness, Wildness, and Metal (music). We fight crime!

Perfectly RAW, and perfectly in the spirit of the Dresdenverse. It  looks funny from the outside, but then again so does Thomas (a sex vampire who pretends to be a gay hairdresser) or Murphy (a tiny kung-fu cheerleader cop hardass) or Harry (a wizard private investigator who can't make any money and is a slave to fairies).

So yes, magical animals are an exception.  You could create a custom template that allows weredragons etc but again, we would be departing from the RAW.

Nope, they're specifically allowed by RAW. There's a note about it and everything. You are absolutely allowed to make a weredragon. 100% RAW, and it's literally like three lines under the text you quote. What I find helpful is, when I reference a rule, I read the section the rule is in just to be sure of the context. Doesn't take long, and avoids misunderstandings.

[Sanctaphrax]

How do you go from the Were-Form template to "oh, I was always only half human"? Looking at the game I don't see adding Changeling, Scion, WCV, or WC Virgin onto a character's existing template.  Those are things that you are born and struggle with that heritage, not acquire mid play.

Amusingly, there are no actual rules for acquiring templates. (IIRC.) So by the RAW, Harry arguably can't become the Winter Knight.

You could just make your dude a Changeling and buy no fey powers at chargen. It's not like it costs anything.

But that's beside the point. What I'm saying is that given the flexibility of the template system, it restricts nothing at all. It's really just a way to make decisions in advance. And to help out newbies/lazy people.

The animal in question isn’t supercharged or innately magical...

"William, just as a note, there are some were-forms that are supercharged or innately magical."

[Richard_Chilton]

I don't have a lot of interest in the argument but, some things are being asserted as fact that I'm curious about...Do you have a reference?I thought it was 'first time they killed by feeding' - do you have a reference to sex causing the change?

I do have a reference.  For Changelings, please see Summer Knight.  For White Court Virgins, please see Blood Rites.
"Want doesn't matter," Bob said. "They feed on pure reflex. It's what they are."

"Let me guess," I said. "The first feeding is lethal."
"Always," Thomas said.

Yup, I was born a WCV Changeling Werewolf Emissary of Power.

Nice character concept, but it's not what we are talking about.  An assertion was made that a PC could go from "I have the were form Template" to "I now fly and shoot lightning from my butt" using the RAW.

A custom template could do it.  Maybe a Changeling or Scion could develop a were form.  That's fine.  But I still can't see how a PC can go from "I have the were form Template" to "I now fly and shoot lightning from my butt" using the RAW.

Richard

[ways and means]

I do have a reference.  For Changelings, please see Summer Knight.  For White Court Virgins, please see Blood Rites.
"Want doesn't matter," Bob said. "They feed on pure reflex. It's what they are."

"Let me guess," I said. "The first feeding is lethal."
"Always," Thomas said.

Nice character concept, but it's not what we are talking about.  An assertion was made that a PC could go from "I have the were form Template" to "I now fly and shoot lightning from my butt" using the RAW.

A custom template could do it.  Maybe a Changeling or Scion could develop a were form.  That's fine.  But I still can't see how a PC can go from "I have the were form Template" to "I now fly and shoot lightning from my butt" using the RAW.

Richard

Take the flying lightning shooting item of power, if your gm's ok with it then it is fine by the rules.

[Richard_Chilton]

Sorry - was working in two windows and forgot to copy and paste this into the previous message.

It's part of the RAW. By creating a custom template, you remain within the rules and change nothing.

Just because the RAW allows you to make custom <x> does not mean that custom X is part of the RAW.  It means that you can add to the RAW in your way and I can add to the RAW in my way. 

Nope, they're specifically allowed by RAW. There's a note about it and everything. You are absolutely allowed to make a weredragon. 100% RAW, and it's literally like three lines under the text you quote. What I find helpful is, when I reference a rule, I read the section the rule is in just to be sure of the context. Doesn't take long, and avoids misunderstandings.

Here is the line I quoted - with the stuff underneath it.  Please point out the weredragon line:

The Dresdenverse is rife with shapeshifters of all stripes (many nonhuman). Some humans have learned (or were simply born with the capability) to take on the form of a beast; when that beast is a wolf, we call them werewolves, but there are many other were-forms out there. The animal in question isn’t supercharged or innately magical (other than the fact that it has a human intellect kicking around in its noggin), but with some practice, the shapeshifter can use it as easily as his human form, within the limits of what that animal can do. Unlike lycanthropes, loupgaroux, and some other types of shapechangers, most were-form shifters are entirely in control of their change. There’s no full moon business going on with us.

Richard

[devonapple]

Take the flying lightning shooting item of power, if your gm's ok with it then it is fine by the rules.

THAT is an actually viable solution, but it sidesteps the whole point of that debate.

Amusingly, there are no actual rules for acquiring templates. (IIRC.) So by the RAW, Harry arguably can't become the Winter Knight.

YS 72: "It may be possible to combine some of these templates, if you can afford each template’s musts. However, it will be rare that those costs work out. We haven’t seen a Wizard-Lycanthrope-Red-Court-Infected-Changelingpotamus in Harry’s casefiles, and you certainly won’t see one as a playable character in this game. For good reason—bring that much mashed-up mojo to bear in one character and you’re on a fast train to negative refreshville."

On White Court Virgins:
YS 85 indicates that Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion are Musts for a White Court Virgin.

Also, "Unblooded White Court virgins do not have the weaknesses of full White Court vampires, making them difficult to detect. Some vestiges of ability—enough to excite emotion and feed on it—exist prior to that point, and a White Court virgin fully aware of his condition might be able to finesse making use of it in a mostly “safe” way."

So a White Court Virgin must have these powers to be a White Court Virgin in the game. The rules don't indicate how old the character has to be to have manifested this, but it is clear that these powers are Musts.