Does the DresdenVerse default to Ultimate Good or Ultimate Evil?

[Mr. Death]

Just gonna say I agree with Silverblaze in lieu of typing mostly the same stuff out.

But yeah, my take on it was that the powers in Your Story were the ones available for players, while the ones only put in one spot (like on a particular creature or NPC) were meant to be for those types of characters--you wouldn't have a PC with myrk unless they had some Hob ancestry, for instance.

[UmbraLux]

But there are many, many, wrong ways to design rules.

If that's even remotely true, why are there so many different systems?  Don't you think they'd evolve towards that one perfect system you seem to be postulating? 

Instead we have fragmentation - people seeking different things from games.  From some Indie games focusing on a single philosophy to games which try to be everything to everyone...and a whole bunch in between those extremes.

To be honest, the narrow view leaves me at a bit of a loss.  It's a big world out there.  Lots of differing cultures, philosophies, viewpoints, perceptions...as well as games, methods of gaming, types of games, and even reasons for gaming.  I tend to think this is a good thing.  Not only does it give me lots of choices but it also allows me to challenge myself with new things and broaden my personal experience set.

[Sanctaphrax]

There are many right ways to write rules and many wrong ones. The existence of multiple correct approaches does not make the existence of wrong approaches impossible.

And introducing narrative balance to powers is a wrong approach.

(At least if you do it the way everyone seems to want to do it. You might be able to pull it off if you used the sort of narrative restrictions that stunts have. The key, I think, is that the narrative balance of stunts is basically mechanical balance dressed up as narrative. But that's another topic.)

This is an arrogant thing to say, but it's true and someone should say it.

Never played One World By Night, it's possible that outside of my circles there are oodles of munchkinny game-ruiners. But when I play, I find that powergamers generally have a better grasp of game balance than other players. It's the clueless people that you need to watch out for.

What I've heard of other people's games backs up this viewpoint, but I admit I'm not 100% confident in it. Only 90%.

Limiting ACaEBG to non-magical attacks sounds like a good solution to me. Not a perfect one, though.

Sacred Guardian should probably be rewritten completely. It's just too good. Most of the powers and stunts in OW are sloppily balanced.

[Richard_Chilton]

As an aside, I have experience with a different LARP group - one that has found ways to clamp on various "I win powers" and "snowflake" aspects of the game.  We do this through hundreds of pages of house rules and a multilayer bureaucracy.  Ask "Can I play a X" and you might just have to ask the person running the game OR you might have to ask the person running the game, the person overseeing all the games in the city, the person overseeing all the games in the region, the person overseeing all the games in the country AND maybe even the one in charge of keeping the global game on track - with global covering USA, Canada, Australia, Ireland, parts of the UK,  several non-English speaking European countries, and some places in South America.

With that system in place we have powergamers exploiting loopholes to min/max their PCs so that they can kill other PCs.  Or not exploiting rules loopholes but pressuring the local STs to overlook character holes.  Things like "I've got a world class shooting skill (5 in that skill - the highest humanly possible) because I'm a former captain in the Navy Seals (or other special forces).  No, I don't have any skill points in athletics, survival, stealth, hand to hand combat, driving, know how to use a computer, or have any education higher than high school - but I was special forces captain.  I can shoot and all my other skills points went into the skills that my supernatural powers are based off of."

Maybe it's just a subclass of people who are drawn to LARPs, but there are a lot of power gamers out there who want to "win" at the expense of others.

Oh, and we also have a system in place to deal with cheating - and we need it.  I've seen character sheets where the player had twice the possible amount of XP he could have earned IF he had been a member a year earlier (i.e. joined when the current chronicle started) and attended every possible game.  Then there are the members we've had to kick out... The first two that spring to mind is one guy  who used his position in the storyteller hierarchy to view other player's sheets in the database and plan ambushing accordingly.  Then there's the former member who had one character sheet for his home game (where his ST knew what powers he could have bought with XP he had earned) and one for when he traveled (with a fake XP log to go with it) with more powers on it.

I also know people who munchkin out without trying to ruin things for others, but the memories of the "I WIN YOU LOSER!!!" types tend to crowd out the memories of the good munchkins.

Richard

Edited to add: I couldn't help feeling a little sympathy for the villainess of "It's My Birthday Too".  Virtually anyone who goes to vampires LARPs knows (or encountered) someone like her.

[Sanctaphrax]

Sounds like a combination of poorly-written mechanics and jerk players, to me.

The mechanically optimal behaviours of a game are the behaviours encouraged by that game. So if the preposterous character you just described is mechanically optimal, then the game is at fault for encouraging that nonsense.

And of course some people are jerks. Best solution is to not play with them, but that's not always practical.

So to deal with said jerks, you should have limits. Mechanical ones, because narrative ones encourage the sort of nonsense you describe.

If we say that you need God's favour to have ACaEBG, then those jerks will try to describe their character as God's chosen regardless of whether it fits. But if we say that you need Guide My Hand, Righteousness, and Holy Touch to have ACaEBG, then we avoid all that.

Those limits have the side benefit of letting people like me play different characters without feeling stupid.

[Richard_Chilton]

Sounds like a combination of poorly-written mechanics and jerk players, to me.

The White Wolf systems for Vampire the Masquerade (1st ed, 2nd ed, V:tDA, 2nd ed revised, DA:V, Victorian Vampire, and V20) have all been style over substance when it came to rules.  The LARP rules had fewer versions, but when rock-paper-scissors replaces the dice you know you're dealing with a rules light system.

And of course some people are jerks. Best solution is to not play with them, but that's not always practical.

Alas, most large LARP groups accept anyone - and have policies about not discriminating against anyone.  Of the people I can remember being kicked out in Canada:
one guy stole the local group's treasury - and it was in four figures,
one had a substance abuse problem and was a mean drunk,
one had serious mental health issues, and
the last one used his position as one of the people running the game to view other player's sheets so he could set up death traps for his in game enemies.

Or to put it another way, it takes a lot to be kicked out.  The mean drunk was suspended maybe half a dozen times, always getting sober long enough to come back with promises of "this time I'm staying sober and I mean it" before we finally took the step of kicking him out.

If we say that you need God's favour to have ACaEBG, then those jerks will try to describe their character as God's chosen regardless of whether it fits. But if we say that you need Guide My Hand, Righteousness, and Holy Touch to have ACaEBG, then we avoid all that.

Stacking stunts like that does have precedent in another FATE game - Spirit of the Century does it that.  A house rule like could easily be the best way to go.  Personally I like the idea of limiting to the Swords and only to the Sword, but requiring a pyramid for that stunt works too.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, White Wolf mechanics tend towards the awful.

As an Exalted fan, I've seen some of their worst work up close.

PS: Giving strict prereqs to ACaEBG is really just a band-aid. It makes it harder to use the power with the things that break it, but it doesn't really solve the issue. To do that, you need to make it incompatible with a number of other things.

[Viatos]

I'd personally put the White God on equal footing with whatever makes up the top of the Outsider pyramid, above their Walkers. They probably outnumber Him, so keeping them on the other side of the Gate is really, really important. This is my personal canon, but it makes sense to me - putting the White God above even the Outsiders is too close to omnipotence. Once the players start asking why the White God doesn't step in and fix X, he becomes Elminster and it breaks versimilitude.

As for the tangential arguments: arguing for narrative balance is a functional argument in a system that supports it. DFRPG, which specifically encourages players to build their own Stunts and Powers and spell rotes and such from existing mechanics, is not such a system. Narrative balance is 0-weight because you are straight-up told "mess with it and make it yours", and so an argument that All Creatures are Equal is limited by narrative is absolutely nonfunctional.

What it is ACTUALLY limited by is "one Fate Point". What a Sword is limited by is "a context approximately as restrictive as a Sword's agenda" but that's already an inherent trait of IoPs and doesn't cross over to All Creatures are Equal. If there is a balance problem here, it needs to be addressed, because Dresden is not a locked setting where only Knights can have such a power, it is an open toolkit by design. It goes against the grain of DFRPG to assume that anything is limited to its original context. It goes against the RPG itself, which is 100% sufficient, but also against the Dresdenverse setting, which is a narrative kitchen sink with very few absolutes in the first place.

[Silverblaze]

Yeah, White Wolf mechanics tend towards the awful.

As an Exalted fan, I've seen some of their worst work up close.

PS: Giving strict prereqs to ACaEBG is really just a band-aid. It makes it harder to use the power with the things that break it, but it doesn't really solve the issue. To do that, you need to make it incompatible with a number of other things.

I almost worked for them as an intern in Georgia.  Then they announced they were ending their universe at Gen Con.

i opted out a that point.

Point is I own most of their books.  Yeah lots of their stuff needed some mechanics work.

I'd personally put the White God on equal footing with whatever makes up the top of the Outsider pyramid, above their Walkers. They probably outnumber Him, so keeping them on the other side of the Gate is really, really important. This is my personal canon, but it makes sense to me - putting the White God above even the Outsiders is too close to omnipotence. Once the players start asking why the White God doesn't step in and fix X, he becomes Elminster and it breaks versimilitude.

As for the tangential arguments: arguing for narrative balance is a functional argument in a system that supports it. DFRPG, which specifically encourages players to build their own Stunts and Powers and spell rotes and such from existing mechanics, is not such a system. Narrative balance is 0-weight because you are straight-up told "mess with it and make it yours", and so an argument that All Creatures are Equal is limited by narrative is absolutely nonfunctional.

What it is ACTUALLY limited by is "one Fate Point". What a Sword is limited by is "a context approximately as restrictive as a Sword's agenda" but that's already an inherent trait of IoPs and doesn't cross over to All Creatures are Equal. If there is a balance problem here, it needs to be addressed, because Dresden is not a locked setting where only Knights can have such a power, it is an open toolkit by design. It goes against the grain of DFRPG to assume that anything is limited to its original context. It goes against the RPG itself, which is 100% sufficient, but also against the Dresdenverse setting, which is a narrative kitchen sink with very few absolutes in the first place.

Well, you guys win.  Perhaps win is the wrong word.  I already said that by system all powers can be reskinned.  I knew that.  I just disagree with it and don't care for it.  I'll just have to shut my trap and live in my safe, secure, balanced, house ruled setting.  I accept this.  Think I'll hide in my bunker now

EDIT: One thing to point out first:

I know Sanctaphrax and I agree that ACAEBG should not be stacked on Evocation.

However, this is allowed by cannon rules when any power can be reskinned and ported to anything else.

-6 to 8 (cost is immaterial at this point -12) Sponsored Reaping Magic
Like Death Himself, Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse, you would reap God were it His time. (Supernatural referrence)  With this power you surely could.  By spending a Fate Point or the equivalent thereof, you may satisfy any or all Catches with your evocations or Thaumaturgy spells.  This effect functions the same as ACAEBG and TCATWEGMD.


Now of course, you can still get your discounts for Evocation or Thaumaturgy.  Coming up with a concept to use this is pretty easy. It is totally legal by RAW, save a bit of nitpicking and adding some fluff; it is even ready for our Custom Sponsored Magic thread.

This just leads to infinite escalation.  -3 power "The Catch and Nothing but the Catch" has already been created here to ignore ACAEBG.

Well I want a power called:

-??? "There Comes a Time When Even Gods Must Die" - that is a Lex Luthor quote btw. I have your catch even if you have that paltry, silly power known as "The Catch and Nothing but hte Catch."  Also mine has a cooler and longer name so it trumps yours...

My heart is all twitterpated just thinking about it!

[ways and means]

I almost worked for them as an intern in Georgia.  Then they announced they were ending their universe at Gen Con.

i opted out a that point.

Point is I own most of their books.  Yeah lots of their stuff needed some mechanics work.


Well, you guys win.  Perhaps win is the wrong word.  I already said that by system all powers can be reskinned.  I knew that.  I just disagree with it and don't care for it.  I'll just have to shut my trap and live in my safe, secure, balanced, house ruled setting.  I accept this.  Think I'll hide in my bunker now

EDIT: One thing to point out first:

I know Sanctaphrax and I agree that ACAEBG should not be stacked on Evocation.

However, this is allowed by cannon rules when any power can be reskinned and ported to anything else.

-6 to 8 (cost is immaterial at this point -12) Sponsored Reaping Magic
Like Death Himself, Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse, you would reap God were it His time. (Supernatural referrence)  With this power you surely could.  By spending a Fate Point or the equivalent thereof, you may satisfy any or all Catches with your evocations or Thaumaturgy spells.  This effect functions the same as ACAEBG and TCATWEGMD.


Now of course, you can still get your discounts for Evocation or Thaumaturgy.  Coming up with a concept to use this is pretty easy. It is totally legal by RAW, save a bit of nitpicking and adding some fluff; it is even ready for our Custom Sponsored Magic thread.

This just leads to infinite escalation.  -3 power "The Catch and Nothing but the Catch" has already been created here to ignore ACAEBG.

Well I want a power called:

-??? "There Comes a Time When Even Gods Must Die" - that is a Lex Luthor quote btw. I have your catch even if you have that paltry, silly power known as "The Catch and Nothing but hte Catch."  Also mine has a cooler and longer name so it trumps yours...

My heart is all twitterpated just thinking about it!

As a gm you can always say no, you get to approve character sheets if balance really concerns you then just be a more dictatorial gm and crack down on character concepts you don't like, your table your rules there is no right answer etc.

[Richard_Chilton]

There's that sidebar that says not all the powers listed on pages 160-161 are appropriate for PCs.  I agree with that.

When it comes to the powers from OW - those ones were looked at less than the main powers.  Someone tried to model a creature and invented a power on the fly, not necessarily taking the time to ensure that it meshed with the existing powers.

Richard

[Viatos]

Well, you guys win.  Perhaps win is the wrong word.  I already said that by system all powers can be reskinned.  I knew that.  I just disagree with it and don't care for it.  I'll just have to shut my trap and live in my safe, secure, balanced, house ruled setting.  I accept this.  Think I'll hide in my bunker now

I think win is the right word. I'm happy with it, anyway. I agree with YOU 100% that things need to be houseruled and home-balanced; the system is not perfect. Although as far as Evocation and All Creatures are Equal goes, that's really a problem with Evocation being too powerful in the first place rather then All Creatures are Equal.

However, this is allowed by cannon rules when any power can be reskinned and ported to anything else.

I believe cannon rules are more appropriately the domain of settings like 7th Sea.

There's that sidebar that says not all the powers listed on pages 160-161 are appropriate for PCs.  I agree with that.

When it comes to the powers from OW - those ones were looked at less than the main powers.  Someone tried to model a creature and invented a power on the fly, not necessarily taking the time to ensure that it meshed with the existing powers.

Richard

Right, which is bad design. Blatantly overpowered combinations made by rules finagling I understand are hard to screen for, but a -1 Power should not be a gamebreaker because someone wasn't paying much attention to it.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Viatos: I agree with you about everything.

@Silverblaze: Hm, maybe we're not as opposed as I thought.

I have no problem with the idea of disallowing powers for concept reasons, as long as it's not part of the rules. I'm just religiously opposed to rules that dictate narrative, with very few exceptions.

@Richard_Chilton: I got the opposite impression from that sidebar. I took it as a nod to practicality and player preference. My reading was, "you can take Spirit Form, but you probably don't want to".

Which is more or less exactly the way I like to see NPC powers handled.

[Richard_Chilton]

Right, which is bad design. Blatantly overpowered combinations made by rules finagling I understand are hard to screen for, but a -1 Power should not be a gamebreaker because someone wasn't paying much attention to it.

My take was that they weighed listing PC powers and NPC powers separately and decided to list them all in one place.  In my mind that was a mistake - that listing them all together blurred the lines between the two categories.   Then again, they seem okay with people mixing and matching if the table wants to.

Richard

[Viatos]

My take was that they weighed listing PC powers and NPC powers separately and decided to list them all in one place.  In my mind that was a mistake - that listing them all together blurred the lines between the two categories.   Then again, they seem okay with people mixing and matching if the table wants to.
 
Richard

If they'd wanted NPC powers to exist, they should have made such a distinction. As it stands, there's no such thing as an NPC power, just powers.