Does the DresdenVerse default to Ultimate Good or Ultimate Evil?

[devonapple]

I think I'm satisfied that my interpretation is in relative alignment with most of the community (which is not to say that I'm right/someone else is wrong - just that my own concerns have been settled), while acknowledging that there can be niche cases in which subverting the occasional absolute can be justified, and certainly if the table wants to place a darker, more Lovecraftian filter on the DresdenVerse.

[Richard_Chilton]

At one point, Bob says that the Swords of the Cross are focus items - focusing the faith of all who believe.

There are more believers living now than in the 12th century.  Or 15th century.  Or 19th century.  Just as there are more virgins and more everything else - the world population is just that much larger now.  Which, if Bob's "it focuses faith" theory is correct, means that the Swords are stronger now than every before.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Yep, you guys get the problems with ACaEBG pretty well.

In order to balance it, you either need to add some prerequisites to the power or provide some method of countering it.

I favour the latter method, partly because I think that a Changeling Knight Of The Cross is a good concept for a character and I'd rather it be possible.

Also because I think that gods and upper-level Outsiders and Angels ought to have something along the lines of ACaEBG.

Ideally, Mab and Titania would both have an ACaEBG-equivalent and a defence against the same. That way, their power can be modelled without making them unable to fight each other.

PS: Taking Sacred Guardian and Weapons stunts with a Sword Of The Cross doesn't make you a munchkin. That's exactly what you'd expect a Knight to have, narratively speaking. And all Knights have True Aim. Making that combo broken causes non-powergamers to make broken characters by accident.
PPS: I'd expect the problems with ACaEBG to set in around 13 Refresh, as a ballpark figure. Since Knights need to waste some Refresh to qualify for ACaEBG, the problems can be disguised for a while.

[Richard_Chilton]

Personally, I'm fine with ACaEBG being limited to the Swords of The Cross.  Three items in all the world that have that power - that seems about right.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

But surely Uriel and Mab can put out that kind of power too. I doubt an archangel would have much trouble with a Loup-Garou.

Incidentally, something similar goes for some characters from other cosmologies. The Saint Of Killers, for instance.

PS: Since nothing is ever more special than the PCs, using narrative specialness as a balancing factor will always fail. Plus is warps concepts. Making a Sword overpowered means that all powergamers will want Swords. And that's bad, for quite a few reasons.

[Richard_Chilton]

But surely Uriel and Mab can put out that kind of power too. I doubt an archangel would have much trouble with a Loup-Garou.

I see being at that level as plot devices - but I'm not sure that the Loup-Garou we saw could be killed by an Archangel.  At least not without archangel falling.

If a Saint decreed the curse then I don't see an agent of God ending it.  I can see Uriel sending the Loup-Garou far away or not being there when the Loup-Garou was raging, but I can't see him killing the Loup-Garou.

Which brings my thoughts back to the original topic, with a slight twist - that McFinn couldn't be killed unless he had a child to pass the curse onto (which leads into Terra being pregnant at the end of Fool Moon and Fritz maybe being her son).  That since it was decreed that the curse run until the end of days an all powerful God will shape events so that the line survives...

Unless (of course) a demon was misleading Harry with the whole "a Saint is at the root of this" bit - which is possible.  If you look at the exact wording the demon used he doesn't say "a Saint channeled the Power of God to..." but something along the lines of "the legends say..." - making it possible that the demon truthfully related a false legend.

Richard

[Silverblaze]

I agree with Richard's recent posts.

I don't think ACAEBG is appropriate for Queens.  They can just chuck spells with shifts so high they can causes ice ages.  Imagine that put into a block spell.  ("You're never gonna hit me!")  They also have each other's catch.  Archangels have soulfire.  Problem solved.

I also do not think all Knights should have sacred guardian. Foo Dogs have that.

I sort of see the Swords as making Paladins in D&D.  They are no the end all.  They are not he best.  They are simply a very good weapon against the darkness.  They suffer sacrifice and in many strict games are only of certain races.  (DFRPG claims they are all mortal [ or mostly mortal]).  I don't think the game is set up to have that sort of superpowered being satisfying catches.  It is in my opinion a matter of game balance.  One I am usually in the minority on.  I am stubbornly decided on this matter.

I provided the math for why I feel it works and why/when it doesn't.


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In regards to the OP I sincerely feel that opposing powers may well be equal to and opposite to The Almighty and his Knights/Swords.  i also feel they should be as rare or rarer, unless your game is even darker than teh normal Dresdenverse.

[Silverblaze]

Easy fix for ACAEBG being too powerful.

High endurance - extra consequence at 5,7,9,11, etc.

Size powers.

Stunt/s allowing an additional or more consequences.

Combine as needed.

No toughness, no recovery, no immunity - no problem.

[ways and means]

You do realize that minor consequences don't actually give you any net extra protection the +2 soak also gives your enemies +2 to damage you next hit. So filling multiple minor consequence slots is a good way to get a character taken out in the next attack.

[Silverblaze]

You do realize that minor consequences don't actually give you any net extra protection the +2 soak also gives your enemies +2 to damage you next hit. So filling multiple minor consequence slots is a good way to get a character taken out in the next attack.

Sure in the next attack.  Meanwhile it (super zombie I mentioned earlier) had time to kill hostages, or attack my other party members.   And whilst we're being kinda rude... You do realize that having more endurance and stunts that grant you more mild consequences are designed to help you stay in the fight longer?

[ways and means]

Sure in the next attack.  Meanwhile it (super zombie I mentioned earlier) had time to kill hostages, or attack my other party members.   And whilst we're being kinda rude... You do realize that having more endurance and stunts that grant you more mild consequences are designed to help you stay in the fight longer?

I do realize that is what they are meant to do, but extra minor consequences are much better at helping you survive a single round than actually helping you survive a combat. What I meant was that minor consequences are 1 round advantage followed by a 1 round disadvantage and certainly no replacement for extra stress boxes which are superior in every way. Sorry didn't mean to offend you Silver.

[ways and means]

I see being at that level as plot devices - but I'm not sure that the Loup-Garou we saw could be killed by an Archangel.  At least not without archangel falling.

If a Saint decreed the curse then I don't see an agent of God ending it.  I can see Uriel sending the Loup-Garou far away or not being there when the Loup-Garou was raging, but I can't see him killing the Loup-Garou.

Which brings my thoughts back to the original topic, with a slight twist - that McFinn couldn't be killed unless he had a child to pass the curse onto (which leads into Terra being pregnant at the end of Fool Moon and Fritz maybe being her son).  That since it was decreed that the curse run until the end of days an all powerful God will shape events so that the line survives...

Unless (of course) a demon was misleading Harry with the whole "a Saint is at the root of this" bit - which is possible.  If you look at the exact wording the demon used he doesn't say "a Saint channeled the Power of God to..." but something along the lines of "the legends say..." - making it possible that the demon truthfully related a false legend.

Richard

I generally assume just because someone is a Saint it doesn't make them an agent of "The White God" it is just as likely that the Saint who cursed the Finn line was just a powerful wizard who could provide miracles on demand (got to love magic) and took a dislike to the family.   

[vultur]

I doubt beings get an All Creatures Are Equal power just from being on the higher heavyweight levels (Faerie Queens etc.), just doesn't seem appropriate to me. They might possibly have something that allows them to treat Physical Immunity as really high Toughness, though.

On the other hand, maybe they don't even have that. I don't think "everything except one rare Catch" Physical Immunity (though limited 'to mortal magic' immunity seems to show up fairly regularly) is common in the Dresdenverse. We've only seen it twice IIRC*.  Loup-garou only actually have it a small minority of the time, and they're not immune to magic in general (Harry blinded one) - a really powerful being could just bind it down immobile until the full moon passed. Nicodemus relies on an irreproducible item of power created from a colossally significant one-of-a-kind event. I don't think "immunity to pretty much everything all the time" is really a power that is going to be around barring things as rare as Nicodemus' circumstances, so it's perfectly plausible to me that even most of the major powers get along without the ability to get through that sort of immunity.

[Richard_Chilton]

I generally assume just because someone is a Saint it doesn't make them an agent of "The White God" it is just as likely that the Saint who cursed the Finn line was just a powerful wizard who could provide miracles on demand (got to love magic) and took a dislike to the family.

You could be right - which is another way the demon could have deceived Harry by mentioning a Saint.

As far as this part of the discuss goes, Dogma is a cute film that examines what happens when mutually exclusive religious statements happen.

Richard

[Vargo Teras]

I see no reason why a Faerie Queen should have, or need, anything like ACAEBG.  As Silverblaze says, their power is sufficient to deal with lesser creatures that have Catches they don't automatically meet, whether through raw force (with Legendary+ Convictions and focus items, it should be casually easy to deal enough damage to inflict severe consequences past armor and extra health boxes) or through tremendous versatility (I guarantee that Mab's servants have, over the aeons, bequeathed upon her any number of silver weapons and items, which a simple invocation of a Vast Resources aspect could provide for loup-garou killing).