Does the DresdenVerse default to Ultimate Good or Ultimate Evil?

[devonapple]

Powers like "All Are Equal Before God" can imply that the DresdenVerse defaults to what I would call an "Ultimate Good," meaning that whatever else happens, that God is kinda there as the ultimate power, subject of course to His provisions regarding faith and direct intervention. The inviolability of Thresholds - fortified as they are by the occupancy of happy, loving families - could indicate that something about the way the world works might be intended to protect good people. Also, Angels.

Not that God is going to step in and directly intervene if Outsiders start spilling into the world (or maybe He will?), but that in this universe, there is a Good, following it is Good, working against it is Bad, and there is an Afterlife.

Others have suggested a few powers which I feel challenge this default Ultimate Good, and it makes me wonder if this *is* just an assumption, or if I'm not alone. I am not sure exactly what the Powers were called, and in any case, I'm not intending to call out the contributors as wrong, but I will mention the Powers here.

One was a Power called something like "You Are Alone," which allows a possessor to ignore the "All Are Equal Before God" Power from the Sword of the Cross. Another was the opposite of "Bless This House," which allows the possessor to break down a Threshold from the inside. I find powers like this problematic because I feel, based on my understanding of the setting, that they subvert what should be inviolable tenets of the DresdenVerse: that once you have God on your side, He is going to trump the lesser powers of evil; that once you are in your comfy and well-loved family home, you are relatively safe.

When these things are subverted, I wonder where the line will be drawn - a question of escalation, a supernatural arms race. Does the DresdenVerse default to Ultimate Good or Ultimate Evil (or Ultimate Chaos)? Is God, Himself, eventually to be trumped by Those from Outside? Will someone eventually design a power modifier for "All Are Equal Before God" called "No, Really, God is With Me" which trumps "You Are Alone"? Or are the rare subversions like this an entertaining way to break up the status quo?

[UmbraLux]

Does the DresdenVerse default to Ultimate Good or Ultimate Evil (or Ultimate Chaos)? Is God, Himself, eventually to be trumped by Those from Outside?

My interpretation of DF convention is there are many gods (several are mentioned in the books) who (may) derive some measure of power from believers but aren't constrained by those beliefs.  The "God" isn't a Christian god or even an Abrahamic god - his function / goal is primarily about preserving Choice. 

So, unless Choice is "ultimate good" neither it nor "ultimate evil" exist in the setting.  I think it's more along the lines of balancing between maximum entropy and complete chaos.

...they subvert what should be inviolable tenets of the DresdenVerse...

To be honest, the Dresdenverse is one man's vision.  I suspect we subvert that in some way every time we play. 

[devonapple]

So, unless Choice is "ultimate good" neither it nor "ultimate evil" exist in the setting.  I think it's more along the lines of balancing between maximum entropy and complete chaos.

I'm happy to shift to that paradigm, but my question of escalation remains. All things being equal, if we affirm the existence of the established terrestrial gods, and place them on a fairly even level, is there any level of agency which goes above that level? Should there be anything so powerful in this plane or another that it trumps that agency which has been set up in the DresdenVerse as "God" for which "All Creatures Are Equal Before"?

To be honest, the Dresdenverse is one man's vision.  I suspect we subvert that in some way every time we play. 

Well, yes.

[UmbraLux]

I'm happy to shift to that paradigm, but my question of escalation remains. All things being equal, if we affirm the existence of the established terrestrial gods, and place them on a fairly even level, is there any level of agency which goes above that level?

If you accept my paradigm, it implies at least two powers are at least equal to the God(s) - entropy and chaos.  Not sure either has been completely personified in the setting but you can make a case for Outsiders representing chaos...possibly entropy as well if Outside is more than one 'place'.  (Not sure "place" is the right term for beyond the outer gates.)

Should there be anything so powerful in this plane or another that it trumps that agency which has been set up in the DresdenVerse as "God" for which "All Creatures Are Equal Before"?

I think that's going to depend on individual groups' views of the setting.  Is there one God or many gods?  Is said God Abrahamic?  Do gods exist outside of belief?  Are they constrained by belief?  Are they constrained by anything?  Or are they the constraints on 'lesser' individuals populating the setting?

I don't think every group will answer those the same way.

[Silverblaze]

Every table is gonna differ on this.

I will say however, that there is a Heavy Hitter side bar placing "The Almighty" at the top.  I should assume he will have very few analogues in most games/tables.  I'm not saying there are no powers of equal strength (though in some groups taht may be hte case)...just that there should be few if cannon means much to that table/group.

[Richard_Chilton]

We know that in the DV there are Fallen and they are led by Lucifer.  We know that various angels exist.  We know that the Angels claim not to have Freewill, so someone is directing them.  We know that the same someone once sent Uriel to do the plague of the First Born in Egypt.  We know that there is a force that guides Knights of the Cross to where they are needed.

In short, there is a Being that Mab refers to as "The White God" and that Micheal, Uriel, etc call "Boss".

However, we also know that Odin and the other "old gods" exist - but we don't know if they are ascended beings or if any of their "myths" are historic truth.  When Dionysus was reveal to exist (or had existed) and Bob mentioned the Sidhe Wars, I started to wonder if the Sidhe Wars were a more historic version of the Titanomachy...

But the creation stories in the Bible and those of the Greeks were completely different - and what do you do when religions collide?

There's someone on the spoiler forum (Ms. Duck) who always points out that Jim has never categorically stated that there a capital G God, Creator of Heaven and Earth.  Instead the Sidhe call him the White God but do not act afraid of him (or his power).

From a game point of view - does it really matter? We are talking about setting and plot devices.  Personally I'd use the Heavy Hitter chart and go with "as far as you know, He can take both Mothers with his hands tied behind his back".  Another option (used in some games) is to make the creator deity an Outsider who made the inside - putting Him at the level of the Great Ones that exist outside reality.

Richard

[devonapple]

The reason I ask the question is one of Power escalation, specifically as it relates to subverting certain mechanisms like All Are Equal Before God.

Are the White God and any potential coevals at the tippy top? And if they are the tippy top, can anything really be made to subvert the Gifts they bestow upon mortals?

Or is there always going to be a bigger fish? Should there be things in the world or Outside so dark and chaotic and anathema to Creation that the White God Himself must avert His eyes, if even for a moment?

[Mr. Death]

Personally, given that God is put right at the top of the powerful things list, I think the intent is that "All Creatures Are Equal Before God" is the end-all, be-all power. And even then, it only balances the scales in conflict, and only on one set of powers--it plows through Toughness, but not Strength or Speed, or even Recovery. Certainly not Evocation or a number of other powers.

[atavistic]

There is a surprisingly elegant solution to this question that can be extrapolated by some of the things we find out about in the short story 'Sidekick'.

(click to show/hide)

The real Venatori are engaged in the oblivion war.  A war where banishing demons and gods and other powers from the world is done by making mankind completely forget them.

  A being's ability to influence the physical world is limited and dependent on its connection to the world, a connection which is entirely based on MORTAL knowledge and belief.  Thanks to the fact that the white god and his angels have become a major part of virtually every culture on earth for the last few thousand years, that makes him the defacto top of the totem in terms of power on earth.
So in terms of is the universe good or evil, the great truth is that the physical universe is as good or evil as mankind believes it to be.

That being said, even heaven and hell seem to have rules of conduct, checks and balances and limits, so its entirely possible that there may be things out there that can out class ACAEBG, by some loop hole or another.  (personal pet theory: the creation of the swords out of the crucifixion nails and Judas's payment of 30 denari creating the nickleheads have a causal link like the chicken and the egg.

(click to show/hide)

Also, the appearance of Malcome Dresden balancing because Lash appeared in the book store in dead beat. Uriel giving Dresden soulfire after the Hell powered power circle used against the Archive. And of course the 7 words balancing act in ghost story

[vultur]

Well, in the big offscreen battle in PG, Michael chops up Outsiders with his Sword, without him even noticing they were anything other than "just regular demons". So Outsiders probably don't get a blanket immunity to "All Creatures Are Equal" (OTOH, maybe their Catch is "only against mortal magic", for all we know ... so nothing's conclusive).

As for the belief thing; I'm not so sure it's that straightforward. "Backup" never suggests mortal belief = power; it suggests a *total* lack of knowledge (not belief, it seems, given that the Brothers Grimm helped link the faeries to our world) might make NN beings lose their connection to the mortal world. That doesn't really imply more worshipers = more power, or that God is the strongest god due to having the most worship.

I really don't think there's any evidence that DV gods get power via belief as such; sacrifices, sure, we know they are a source of power - but even there I'm not sure the mechanism needs to be any different from the one where sacrifices can power a big spell. Odin doesn't mention lack of worship at all when he talks about his own power loss; he talks about the loss of his pantheon's cohesion without the Jotuns there to oppose. Also, god-type beings seem to be tied to places for their power - the naagloshii, Odin, the Lords of Outer Night... .but then, ordinary wizards can do sanctum invocations. Given the Lords of Outer Night being 'mostly retired gods' and Red Court Vampires, I'm not sure "god" is really a distinct class of being with its own rules in the DV the way fae are.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't care much about the deeper metaphysics of the setting. They're rarely relevant to anything that I care about.

But All Creatures Are Equal Before God is mechanically problematic, and Powers that negate it might be a good way to make it less so.

If anybody's wondering, the problem with ACAEBG is that once it's introduced into high-level combat things get a bit rocket-tag-like. Pretty sure it's not much of a problem at normal power levels though.

[Tsunami]

The problems with ACAEBG arise when you grant the power to those who already have other powers at their disposal.

A Human with a Sword (Weapon:3), decent to masterful skill and ACAEBG is a challange to most supernatural creatures.

A being with enhanced strength, speed and toughness wielding such a blade is totally off the scale.

The intent of the power is to make it possible for a non-powered human to stand up to the powered creatures.
That's why it doesn't balance well when used by powered characters.

[Praxidicae]

There is a surprisingly elegant solution to this question that can be extrapolated by some of the things we find out about in the short story 'Sidekick'.

(click to show/hide)

The real Venatori are engaged in the oblivion war.  A war where banishing demons and gods and other powers from the world is done by making mankind completely forget them.

  A being's ability to influence the physical world is limited and dependent on its connection to the world, a connection which is entirely based on MORTAL knowledge and belief.  Thanks to the fact that the white god and his angels have become a major part of virtually every culture on earth for the last few thousand years, that makes him the defacto top of the totem in terms of power on earth.

My interpretation of the setting is heavily based upon the truthes revealed by Sidekick mentioned above.
The only reason that the 'White God' is seen as the almighty creator is that his creed has spread so far as to make him considerably more powerful than his former peers. This isn't a position he was always in, nor one that he can necessarily maintain indefinately, it's just the current state of play. As atavistic said, the world itself is neither ultimately good nor bad, it just is, its the combined Akashic subconscious of mankind that determines the nature of the status quo.
Edited for spelling

[Silverblaze]

I don't care much about the deeper metaphysics of the setting. They're rarely relevant to anything that I care about.

But All Creatures Are Equal Before God is mechanically problematic, and Powers that negate it might be a good way to make it less so.

If anybody's wondering, the problem with ACAEBG is that once it's introduced into high-level combat things get a bit rocket-tag-like. Pretty sure it's not much of a problem at normal power levels though.

Define high level/refresh. 

I am inclined to disagree until further data is provided.

I can tell you right now my GM made super zombies a challenge for my knight even using ACAEBG.  Extra consquences from a stunt (1 mild) 2 milds from endurance (5 and 7 respectively). 

Tsunami brings up a valid point.

The problems with ACAEBG arise when you grant the power to those who already have other powers at their disposal.

A Human with a Sword (Weapon:3), decent to masterful skill and ACAEBG is a challange to most supernatural creatures.

A being with enhanced strength, speed and toughness wielding such a blade is totally off the scale.
The intent of the power is to make it possible for a non-powered human to stand up to the powered creatures.
That's why it doesn't balance well when used by powered characters.

Even then at high levels the knight can/should still be in trouble.  He/she has no toughness or recovery.  The bad guys can and will wear him down.  I should know from experience.

Sure, you start munchkining sacred guardian(+1-4 damage), strength powers(+ 2-6 damage), true aim(+1 accuracy), ACAEBG (bypass catch), weapon stunts (+1 accuracy or +2 stress, maybe both with multiple stunts?), and high skills... yeah, you got a monster on your hands.

A monster your table allowed and thus deserves (at least in my opinion)

(damage output bypassing all catches could equal up to: 15 + accuracy which includes the weapon skill, true aim, up to +4 for the roll and maybe a +1 accuracy stunt. : lets assume an even roll by both parties and an even skill rating...you could still add 1 or 2 damage from accuracy; yielding 17 damage without utilizing aspects, maneuvers, or consequences.)

lets see - 17 damage: 4 stress, 1 mild, 1 moderate, 1 severe. (or more milds if the target has them)  lots of damage eh?

Weapon : 3 ACAEBG nowhere near as bad, even with a +2 stress stunt.

lets see 3 damage: 3 stress.  Maybe 3 stress and a mild consequence if the +2 stress is added.

EDIT: a PC with mythic strength a weapon 3 mele weapon (though cars are viable as a weapon at that rating) could be dealing 11 stress.

even against a mythic tough hulking size foe - that is an 11 stress hit. minimum.  (take away the size and it is a 9 stress hit and a mild consequence) - very similar to the Knight who was using a sword of the cross and maybe a fate point.  Think about this though.  If the creature being hit is a Fae...and the mythicly strong character had iron... that fae would be in a world more hurt than even the Knight could dish out.

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, the power is explicitly written to say that it provides a balance for mortals who would otherwise have no chance. It becomes "problematic" if you ignore that and define it just as a -3 refresh power costing a fate point to use.