Confused by Item of Power

[Tedronai]

I guess I don't think I would mind necessarily if it was a +0 catch, but others might. You should probably check with your GM about that.

It is exactly double-dipping, even at +0
If I were GMing, I still wouldn't let that pass muster.

Compare to Nicodemus' Noose.  The Catch on that isn't 'not having the Noose', but 'the Noose itself'.  The power is coming from the Noose, or the Eye, losing the powers from losing the item is a given.

[eiredrake]

It is exactly double-dipping, even at +0
If I were GMing, I still wouldn't let that pass muster.

Compare to Nicodemus' Noose.  The Catch on that isn't 'not having the Noose', but 'the Noose itself'.  The power is coming from the Noose, or the Eye, losing the powers from losing the item is a given.

Actually it's less double dipping than it is none of knowing what we're doing. We're all new to this game. I actually do want my character & his stuff to be legit in game. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking for input.

What would you suggest for a catch? Maybe something that could bypass the regenerative factor? It would have to be something someone could reasonably obtain. Even if it were something like: Can be harmed by something from beyond the earth (like meteoric iron or something) you could still obtain it but that'd make me more powerful than Fae Queens. It would probably make sense if it was something associated with the goddess herself or perhaps an enemy of hers? She did stand in a bit of opposition to Tyche. I think I'll need to do some more reading.

What about something like.... the Eye provides immortality and the sight and then rather than having a separate item as the sword... maybe the user's favored weapon becomes the sword?

Maybe with a catch of:
Half-Blinded by a god. - which gives whatever reasonable penalties could be expected for having only one eye when the use no longer possesses the artifact?

Aren't You Supposed to be Dead?: Not sure what this would do exactly but it sounded like a cool phrase for a catch.

[sinker]

Maybe with a catch of:
Half-Blinded by a god. - which gives whatever reasonable penalties could be expected for having only one eye when the use no longer possesses the artifact?

This is an aspect (although I would argue that it's half finished). Any time this would be an inconvenience, your GM would compel this aspect and you would get a fate point, so being blind is actually less of a disadvantage than you might think in DFRPG (one of my friends played a fully blind character in our first game). The reason I would argue that it's half-finished is that you probably should come up with a positive side (linking it to nemesis might be a good idea) so that you can also invoke the aspect.

A catch is just a circumstance where your recovery doesn't work. It can be as rare or as common as you like (just cause it's rarer than Iron, doesn't make you more powerful than the Fey).

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, there is a lot more to a Fae's power than just their catch. There's a reason that there's a fairly short list of things that might be able to take out Mab, and most of them amount to whole armies or more.

[Tedronai]

Actually it's less double dipping than it is none of knowing what we're doing. We're all new to this game. I actually do want my character & his stuff to be legit in game. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking for input.

Just because I called out something on your hypothetical character as problematic doesn't mean I think you're trying to cheat the system.  I apologize if it came out that way.


As for a possible replacement Catch, just going with '[+0]: unknown' is perfectly legitimate.  It should come up at most once or twice in an entire campaign, and only at a suitably dramatic moment, with license given to the GM to make it something interesting (but very rare and difficult to come by).

If you want something more concrete, though, you could go with the WCV method, and choose the opposite of the Eye, Serenity or possibly Forgiveness to counter Vengeance, and require that the emotion be 'True' for that crucial bit of rarity.  This, too, would likely be a +0 Catch.

[eiredrake]

Just because I called out something on your hypothetical character as problematic doesn't mean I think you're trying to cheat the system.  I apologize if it came out that way.


As for a possible replacement Catch, just going with '[+0]: unknown' is perfectly legitimate.  It should come up at most once or twice in an entire campaign, and only at a suitably dramatic moment, with license given to the GM to make it something interesting (but very rare and difficult to come by).

If you want something more concrete, though, you could go with the WCV method, and choose the opposite of the Eye, Serenity or possibly Forgiveness to counter Vengeance, and require that the emotion be 'True' for that crucial bit of rarity.  This, too, would likely be a +0 Catch.

No worries, I didn't take offense. I was just clarifying where I was. Trust me if I couldn't handle the criticism I wouldn't have asked for advice =). You guys are helping me build a better character and helping me advance my understanding and knowledge so I'm grateful.

And actually Alejandro isn't hypothetical I've actually have been playing him. It's just as that as I become more familiar with the rules I realize we're not doing stuff right. The GM's been a bit lenient with our ability to move stuff around on our characters since none of us are familiar with the game. I've been in I think 3 sessions total and there were two more that I missed.

For example I think my GM thinks refresh points are like the Chips in Deadlands. She keeps giving them out at the end of the adventure and said something last time about spending them before the next game. But as I read up on advancement i realized that's totally not what you do. That was last game though so I haven't said anything yet. Alejandro has about 9-12 fate points currently, which I realize now isn't right.

So, you're basically saying that Catch: Not of this earth (weapons based on materials that are non-terrestrial bypass recovery) would be legit? Of course saying it like that wouldn't just open me up to meteoric iron but to almost anything supernatural like Fae weapons and such. So that might be a bit too broad now that I think of it.

WCV method?

I am liking your suggestion of Serenity or Forgiveness. Like perhaps if the target is genuinely sorry for what they have done and wishes to make amends or something?

[Tedronai]

For example I think my GM thinks refresh points are like the Chips in Deadlands. She keeps giving them out at the end of the adventure and said something last time about spending them before the next game. But as I read up on advancement i realized that's totally not what you do. That was last game though so I haven't said anything yet. Alejandro has about 9-12 fate points currently, which I realize now isn't right.

Fate Points are generally 'handed out' sufficient to bring each character to a minimum of their adjusted refresh total, but not over, at either the start or end of a session.
Refresh points are meant to be rather scarcer, unless the goal is a truly meteoric rise to power.

So, you're basically saying that Catch: Not of this earth (weapons based on materials that are non-terrestrial bypass recovery) would be legit? Of course saying it like that wouldn't just open me up to meteoric iron but to almost anything supernatural like Fae weapons and such. So that might be a bit too broad now that I think of it.

The rules would have no objection to that Catch in either interpretation.  Limiting it to non-terrestrial sources that are nevertheless of the mortal plane would likely yield a +1 bonus, or as high as +3 depending on how widely the Catch is known.
Including sources from the Nevernever would easily bring the Catch up to a range of +2 to +4, again, depending on how widely it is known.
Given the degree of Toughness powers that the Catch is being applied to, and understanding that no Catch, no matter how broad, can ever refund the full value of the sum of a character's Toughness powers, the first and most limited interpretation would be the most beneficial to the character:
non-terrestrial sources of the mortal plane, with this fact requiring personal knowledge of the character to have a chance to uncover

WCV method?

A reference to the fact that a White Court Vampire's Catch is the emotion opposite that which they incite and upon which they feed.

I am liking your suggestion of Serenity or Forgiveness. Like perhaps if the target is genuinely sorry for what they have done and wishes to make amends or something?

My intended suggestion was that only those who are feeling one of either Truly Forgiving or Truly Serene could do lasting harm to the one who possesses the Eye of Vengeance.
(True Forgiveness would likely require that the one inflicting the harm forgive your character for any and all of their perceived wrongdoings, WHILE the harm is being done, and then hold that forgiveness up to the finest inspection allowing not the slightest doubt or reserve or moment's hesitation; you won't find many individuals in the whole of the world capable of that feat with regard to anyone, let alone a particular individual)

edit: either True Serenity or True Forgiveness would be at most a +2 Catch, depending on how widely they are known, with reasonable arguments for either to be capped a +1, instead due to the sheer difficulty of discovering not just whether the bearer of the Eye is vulnerable to a given True feeling, but whether a given embodiment of that feeling is True
I would without hesitation place them at +0

[eiredrake]

Given the degree of Toughness powers that the Catch is being applied to, and understanding that no Catch, no matter how broad, can ever refund the full value of the sum of a character's Toughness powers, the first and most limited interpretation would be the most beneficial to the character:

Wait... I thought the power HAD to have a catch? Why would I benefit (get extra points) from it if it's a requirement?

My intended suggestion was that only those who are feeling one of either Truly Forgiving or Truly Serene could do lasting harm to the one who possesses the Eye of Vengeance.
(True Forgiveness would likely require that the one inflicting the harm forgive your character for any and all of their perceived wrongdoings, WHILE the harm is being done, and then hold that forgiveness up to the finest inspection allowing not the slightest doubt or reserve or moment's hesitation; you won't find many individuals in the whole of the world capable of that feat with regard to anyone, let alone a particular individual)

Interesting.... sounds like that'd be pretty rare though. Knights of the Cross, Forthill and the like maybe. But if they forgive me, that would beg the question of why they would want to harm me.

[Orladdin]

Wait... I thought the power HAD to have a catch? Why would I benefit (get extra points) from it if it's a requirement?

They do.  But you as a player can specify that it is an Unknown catch [+0]...  which means that you're weak to something unspecified that might come up later.
Having a catch that is easier or harder to discover/have access to, refunds more or less of the cost of the power based on how much it interferes with your use of the power.  For example, being weak to iron-alloys, like the faeries, is much worse than being weak to only the venom of a rare jellyfish.  Faeries get a larger refund for that reason.

Interesting.... sounds like that'd be pretty rare though. Knights of the Cross, Forthill and the like maybe. But if they forgive me, that would beg the question of why they would want to harm me.

That would be what we call an interesting plot point.
How often does Dresden go up against someone who he doesn't particularly have any malice against, but must stop them anyway?  Maybe the person thinks that what you are doing is likely to destroy the world.  If they think you aren't doing it on purpose, they might forgive your error, but need to stop you anyway.

But if they forgive me, that would beg the question of why they would want to harm me.

  And it would be "raises the question."  "Begging the question" is a kind of logical fallacy.

[eiredrake]

  And it would be "raises the question."  "Begging the question" is a kind of logical fallacy.

lol... Apologies. Apparently that particular bit of language butchery is common enough that it has its own section in the Wiki article for "Begging the Question".

[Tedronai]

How often does Dresden go up against someone who he doesn't particularly have any malice against, but must stop them anyway?  Maybe the person thinks that what you are doing is likely to destroy the world.  If they think you aren't doing it on purpose, they might forgive your error, but need to stop you anyway.

They might casually forgive your error the same way one might casually fry oneself an omelette.  Chances are, for the vast majority of us, that omelette wouldn't pass muster in a 5 star restaurant, and that casual forgiveness wouldn't pass the test for a True feeling, either.

[eiredrake]

Item of Power: Eye of Vengeance
Cost: -1
Description: A highly polished black spheroid made of some sort of gemstone the size of a human eye.
Must: Must have a high concept or template appropriate to being chosen by Nemesis.
Effects:

• Your Purpose is Not Yet Fulfilled: Grants the wielder Inhuman Recovery (-2)
  Catch: XXXX is thy Bane

- Bypasses Inhuman Recovery, preventing more than mortal healing.

• The Guilty Cannot Hide: Grants the weilder The Sight (-1)
• Discount Already Applied: +2

   
The only thing would be how to word 'XXXX is thy Bane'.

So... if i understand this correctly. The overall refresh cost to Alejandro is 1, right?

Possible catches....

• Weapons made from non-terrestrial materials.
• Penitence: An attack by someone who is genuinely sorry for their transgressions
• Serenity: 'Truly Serene' - not sure how to word this
• Forgiveness: 'Truly Forgiving' - not sure how to word this

[Tedronai]

I feel that I should also point out that the same rule that applies to the value of the Catch in relation to your Toughness powers also applies to the IoP rebate in relation to the sum of the powers granted, including the Catch, so, unless you want to add powers to the Eye or upgrade the Recovery to Superhuman, you will not gain any further rebate regardless of what Catch you select or how widely known you decide it should be.

As far as the wording for the True feelings goes, I would use something like the following for myself:
'Individuals experiencing, or objects symbolizing, True [ Serenity / Forgiveness  (and I'd throw Penitence in here as well) ], similar to the manner in which White Court Vampires are affected by their respective True Emotions.'

[eiredrake]

You will not gain any further rebate regardless of what Catch you select or how widely known you decide it should be.

If I'm reading YW185 correctly, I must have a Catch for Inhuman Recovery but, I don't get anything extra from the catch anyway.

If the power protects me from everything except something... I get nothing...
If it is bypassed by something only one or two people in the wold have access to or could produce (like a Sword of the Cross) you get nothing...
If knowledge of the Catch requires you to personally learn about it, you get nothing...

Or is that what you're saying?

Or do you mean that even though the Catch is mandatory if it were something Common (+2) you'd get that bonus but it just doesn't apply here because it's an item of power?

[Tedronai]

Add each catagory:
0 or 2 for an exclusive vs inclusive catch
0, 1, or 2 for availability
0, 1, or 2 for knowledge

The general Fae vulnerability to iron thus gives up to a +4 rebate (0 for excluding one source from your power, 2 for iron being easily come by, 2 for pretty much anyone with awareness of the supernatural knowing to use iron against the fae).  If a given Fae only has Inhuman Recovery, though, they'd still only get 1 refresh back.