A final poll

[Richard_Chilton]

This poll will stay will on April 18 my local time.  10 days from this posting.

At the end of that time I expect we will have two (maybe three) different consensuses.  Then we can walk away, secure in the knowledge that we've made our various points.

Richard

[sinker]

I don't really see this as helpful, Richard. It's a bit redundant since we already have a thread for discussion and it's easy enough to look through the thread and see who (and how many) is on each side.

Additionally it's frustrating when the person on the opposite side of the argument tries to encapsulate your argument, because it's invariably viewed through a bias that warps it. So neither of those views adequately represents my own.

[Richard_Chilton]

I'm sorry then.

How would you encapsulate that viewpoint?

Reply and I'll delete this poll and replace it with a new one.

Or you can do it. 

As for the discussion, I believe I've captured at least two of the views expressed on that thread.

Richard

[sinker]

Oh, and finally since we all agree that this is predominantly related to which passages of RAW you give precedence and how you interpret things, the only possible use for a poll like this would be for the winner to throw it in the face of looser. I don't really want to participate in that.

[Richard_Chilton]

I thought a show of hands would be nice.  Saving endless debate.

If people feel otherwise I will delete the poll - before it reveals the numbers.

But since you feel my summary was inaccurate, I am curious about how you would encapsulate you position.

Richard

[sinker]

The way I see it, the argument has four positions (though I may be forgetting one) and to state them most clearly I figure it's best to remove all specifics (I.E. changelings or scions).

1) That supernatural concepts/aspects on their own preclude a refresh bonus.

2) That supernatural concepts/aspects are best represented with powers (or require powers) which would preclude a refresh bonus.

3)That aspects/concepts and the refresh bonus have absolutely nothing to do with each other. No aspect requires powers or precludes a refresh bonus.

I sat here and tried to figure out where my own (which would be the fourth) fits. I guess mine is complex and hard to encapsulate. It would probably best fit under "other" above, but still I think those other three capture what others have said, and don't use the specifics that can make things hard for people (for example I wouldn't place changelings and scions in the same boat, as to me they are not the same, or even as similar as others seem to feel).

[Richard_Chilton]

Edited the questions, reset the votes.  If you voted before, that vote's gone.

Richard

[GryMor]

#4 looks right with the caveat that a 'Pure Mortal' that discovers they are 'really' a 'Changeling' could retain the 'Pure Mortal' template until such time as they actually take powers, starting down the road to needing to make 'the Choice'. The same goes for the potential 'Wizard' that hasn't been trained and doesn't know how to intentionally draw up power (and hence doesn't have any powers) but has some aspects relating to things that more easily happen around them and/or to them.

[Tedronai]

Those are certainly two scenarios that option 4 could be used to represent (without penalizing a player for choosing an interesting concept).

[UmbraLux]

Personally, I'm not going to try and figure out RAW on this one. 

My preference is to make the choice between "you are magic" and "stuff, possibly magic, happens".  The first will cost you the pure mortal refresh whether or not you have powers and the second won't.  That said, not having powers will limit you to actions / abilities which could be explained away or are entirely external to yourself. 

In other words, Butters drawing a circle (entirely external to himself) may well still be a pure mortal who invokes a declaration for effect.  Mouse's puppies are magical (and lose the pure mortal bonus) - even if they may not start out with any powers. 

If you must have a "RAW answer" I'd simply point out that the Pure Mortal template is the only place OW mentions increasing the starting refresh for a character.  Which means the answer really depends on where you draw the line between pure mortal and something else.