Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?

[fantazero]

Works ok for mid to high level groups...what about low level groups.  This pretty much eats them no?

Running away is always an option

[Silverblaze]

Running away is always an option

So why use it?  The PC's can't fight it.  They get to fail at protecting people or all die.

That plot has fail written all over it.  PC's losing is fine, assumign they had some chance in the first place or if the opposition had some awesome plot related reason they interacted with it. 

"Zombies?  Yeah we lost to a horde of zombies.  I shot them in the head a million times but I couldn't hurt them.  Oh yeah and they were throwing cars around...."

That a story you want your players telling later?

I think not.

[Sanctaphrax]

It's a thousand zombies. It, like a dragon, is not an opponent for low-level groups.

Low-level groups can fight something else.

(Or they can just turn off the drumbeat. But in that case you aren't really using the horde as a character, you're using it as background.)

[computerking]

So why use it?  The PC's can't fight it.  They get to fail at protecting people or all die.

That plot has fail written all over it.  PC's losing is fine, assumign they had some chance in the first place or if the opposition had some awesome plot related reason they interacted with it. 

"Zombies?  Yeah we lost to a horde of zombies.  I shot them in the head a million times but I couldn't hurt them.  Oh yeah and they were throwing cars around...."

That a story you want your players telling later?

I think not.

Facing an opponent that is unstoppable by direct force is supposed to result in the players thinking up another solution. Just because Sancta came up with stats for it doesn't mean that every level of characters will be able to defeat it. "If it has stats, we can kill it" doesn't apply here. If you're aiming for more of a horror angle, the characters freaking out over the innocents that they had to leave behind is perfectly in line with the theme.

"Zombies?  Yeah we lost to a horde of zombies.  I shot them in the head a million times but I couldn't hurt them.  Oh yeah and they were throwing cars around...."

Should be followed by:

"...And then we managed to lure them into that lake, by the power plant. Almost lost Bill in that raft, but he managed to get to the other side before we let the power lines fall in..."

Or something similar. The book does mention that some adversaries are better gotten around than gone through.

[Silverblaze]

Works ok for mid to high level groups...what about low level groups.  This pretty much eats them no?

Allow me to reitterate.

The point is this won't work for all situations.  A horde of zombies could also be represented in a much less deadly fashion.  That was my point.

one thing I havent seen is, make a Low Level Character, like 1 or 2 stress boxes

now throw a 100 at them, I mean it. 100 NPCs. Make them Zombie Children or something.  I've seen too many games which just turn into, Everyone pile on Godzilla.

Whats more fun is if you make a little Graph or something, bring a 100 Lego Men, and show your characters how &#*$% they are.

The superpowered horde of zombies does not represent this at all. 

[fantazero]

okay 100 girl scouts from the never never
annnnnnnnd go

[Sanctaphrax]

You can't fight a thousand zombies head-on unless you're pretty badass.

Objecting to high stats on a zombie horde is no more sensible than objecting to high stats on a Denarian.

PS: I actually think that I may have understatted the zombie horde. 1000 x 7 Refresh = 26 Refresh? And 1000 x Good skills = Superb skills? Seems a bit weak, really.

[Mr. Death]

Well, even with 1000 zombies, you're not going to be fighting or fought by 1000 zombies at any one time. There's only so many that are going to be able to reach you at once, after all.

[fantazero]

Well, even with 1000 zombies, you're not going to be fighting or fought by 1000 zombies at any one time. There's only so many that are going to be able to reach you at once, after all.

unless they form a zombie ultron

[UmbraLux]

I'd probably stat a thousand zombies up as a hazard.  Not something to be defeated so much as survived.

[Sanctaphrax]

That works too, although not in the same situations as the character-based approach.

[ways and means]

A well built submerged combat character could beat a 1000 regular zombies with high level speed and strength powers alone (pickup a car throw a car move 2 zone along wince and repeat adnosium) any pc with wings could also beat that many zombies by just dropping rocks, it would just be the dullest fight scene imaginable.

[Mr. Death]

Only if the GM is extremely uncreative.

You'd run out of cars eventually, and there's nothing stopping Dresdenverse zombies from picking up objects and throwing them at the flier. Plus the flier has to go back down to the ground to drop rocks; plenty of opportunity to have his wings clipped.

[fantazero]

Only if the GM is extremely uncreative.

You'd run out of cars eventually, and there's nothing stopping Dresdenverse zombies from picking up objects and throwing them at the flier. Plus the flier has to go back down to the ground to drop rocks; plenty of opportunity to have his wings clipped.

*Clued In Police Sees man flying over zombie horde*
That guy must be the leader, get 'em! *shotguns

[computerking]

*Clued In Police

Or Zombie Videogamer

Sees man flying over zombie horde*
That guy must be the leader, get 'em! *shotguns