Doylist analysis on LC fix timing

[TheCuriousFan]

Intersting.  This gets me thinking... Whoever Thomas could have let in would have to be someone that doesn't care about a WCV living with Harry or flat out knows their relationship. 

It would also have to be someone Thomas trusts enough to let them risk Harry's life by fiddling around with his equipment.

Jim didn't write the DFRPG, he just read over it and told them things like, "You can't use that, I won't be revealing it until much later in the series."  However, seeing their writeup might have motivated him to flesh out the points for your #2.

Reading this, I have to wonder, did they get to look at notes detailing various concepts and backstories of creatures in the dresdenverse to make so many accurate guesses about future content?

[Serack]

It would also have to be someone Thomas trusts enough to let them risk Harry's life by fiddling around with his equipment.

I added a few extra thoughts in an edit to that post.  I hope you don't miss em. 

Reading this, I have to wonder, did they get to look at notes detailing various concepts and backstories of creatures in the dresdenverse to make so many accurate guesses about future content?

Yes and no.  Since Iago says he has been sitting on the spoiler for the event at the conclusion of Changes since before the books were published, I get the idea that he was probably privy to Jim's original notes on the series that he wrote during his "writing a series" class.  However Iago didn't do most of the writing for the books. 

Here's something Iago said about the Watsonian PoV of the DFRPG books:

It is not Word of Jim, but it's close.  The blacked out stuff that folks can discover in the PDFs are 4th wall breaking stuff, mainly an in joke for people who figure out how to read it. Beyond that there are elements of the text that are at least slightly inaccurate or more often incomplete because the rpg as presented is being filtered through Billy -- a version of Billy who was more clued in prior to Turn Coat, so the rpg itself is at least a little alternate universe in its conceit.  But regardless we made it as close to the spruce material as we could manage, because we wanted the setting parts of it to work as a legitimate fan guide too.

I take this to mean that pretty much the main source material for the DFRPG books is the case files themselves up to TC, with a little bit of interpolation and spin put on it by the writers from the perspective of Billy.

[Priscellie]

Intersting.  This gets me thinking... Whoever Thomas could have let in would have to be someone that doesn't care about a WCV living with Harry or flat out knows their relationship.  It also inspires some other thoughts that if expressed, I fear could lead to derailment.  I'd rather hear more opinions like this one first.

Ooh, good point.

Jim didn't write the DFRPG, he just read over it and told them things like, "You can't use that, I won't be revealing it until much later in the series."  However, seeing their writeup might have motivated him to flesh out the points for your #2.

While it's true that Jim didn't "write" the DFRPG, he answered a LOT of questions for the team, clarifying points that were unclear or thusfar undefined.  A LOT.  STAGGERING amounts of text.  He also provided a lot of answers to questions they didn't ask, providing huge, wonderful insights into the Dresdenverse.  (Good lord, how I wish I could see all that correspondence!  And all the future developments Chad figured out from text alone that Jim made him remove from the published version!  Covet!)  I think the DFRPG provided an excellent catalyst for him to solidify concepts in his mind he may not have taken the time to complete worked out.

Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant.  If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there?  The Doylist argument of "He just figured this out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me.  I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.

Also, while I know the DFRPG was in progress at the time Jim was writing Proven Guilty, I don't know how actively Jim was contributing at the time.  I didn't become a beta until just after White Night was published, so my Behind The Scenes-foo was weaker.

Since Iago says he has been sitting on the spoiler for the event at the conclusion of Changes since before the books were published, I get the idea that he was probably privy to Jim's original notes on the series that he wrote during his "writing a series" class.  However Iago didn't do most of the writing for the books.

Nah, Jim just likes tormenting those close to him.   He told me the first line of "Changes" over a burger at New York Comic Con two years before the book came out, because he wanted to see my flailing reaction. XD  While Fred is certainly the non-Butcher person who knows the most about what's going to happen in future books (unless it's Debbie Chester), I don't think it was because Jim let him see his notes.  I think it was because Jim had to share his evil genius plan with someone.

[Serack]

Ooh, good point.

While it's true that Jim didn't "write" the DFRPG, he answered a LOT of questions for the team, clarifying points that were unclear or thusfar undefined.  A LOT.  STAGGERING amounts of text.  He also provided a lot of answers to questions they didn't ask, providing huge, wonderful insights into the Dresdenverse.  (Good lord, how I wish I could see all that correspondence!  And all the future developments Chad figured out from text alone that Jim made him remove from the published version!  Covet!)  I think the DFRPG provided an excellent catalyst for him to solidify concepts in his mind he may not have taken the time to complete worked out.

Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant.  If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there?  The Doylist argument of "He just figured this out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me.  I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.

Also, while I know the DFRPG was in progress at the time Jim was writing Proven Guilty, I don't know how actively Jim was contributing at the time.  I didn't become a beta until just after White Night was published, so my Behind The Scenes-foo was weaker.

Nah, Jim just likes tormenting those close to him.   He told me the first line of "Changes" over a burger at New York Comic Con two years before the book came out, because he wanted to see my flailing reaction. XD  While Fred is certainly the non-Butcher person who knows the most about what's going to happen in future books (unless it's Debbie Chester), I don't think it was because Jim let him see his notes.  I think it was because Jim had to share his evil genius plan with someone.

You mind if I pin some of this down in my "Word of Mods" section?  I ask because I don't want you to constantly feel like you have to self edit because you are considering what might be claimed for posterity.

[Vairelome]

Edit:  Also, the fact that Thomas greeted Harry with the sawed off Shot Gun at the beginning of Ch 18 when he is coming in the door made me think that maybe he was particularly jumpy at the time, and wonder how that flavors this theory.  I started going down the train of thought that maybe the perp was still in the appt at the time, but if so, Mouse would have probably keyed in on a veiled exit.

This is a very clever point; what do you think of this explanation?  (The following would be consistent with Mab as the culprit.)

Thomas let someone into the apartment (random girlfriend, perhaps?), and then something happens that demonstrates she wasn't who Thomas thought she was.  Suppose she managed to...outlast Thomas's WCV endurance and then cased the place while he was all happy and comatose.  She fixes LC and then exits the apartment through a portal to the Nevernever starting in Harry's basement and ending in Lea's garden.  Thomas wakes up before Harry gets home and is freaked out by the fact that he fell asleep leaving a stranger in the apartment, and the stranger is gone leaving everything bolted shut from the inside.  When Harry returns, Thomas thinks it might be "mystery girlfriend" back for round two, and while he's OK with part of that idea, he'd really like some answers first.  Hence the shotgun.

[Priscellie]

You mind if I pin some of this down in my "Word of Mods" section?  I ask because I don't want you to constantly feel like you have to self edit because you are considering what might be claimed for posterity.

Sure thing.  I appreciate you asking first!

[Serack]

This is a very clever point; what do you think of this explanation?  (The following would be consistent with Mab as the culprit.)

Thomas let someone into the apartment (random girlfriend, perhaps?), and then something happens that demonstrates she wasn't who Thomas thought she was.  Suppose she managed to...outlast Thomas's WCV endurance and then cased the place while he was all happy and comatose.  She fixes LC and then exits the apartment through a portal to the Nevernever starting in Harry's basement and ending in Lea's garden.  Thomas wakes up before Harry gets home and is freaked out by the fact that he fell asleep leaving a stranger in the apartment, and the stranger is gone leaving everything bolted shut from the inside.  When Harry returns, Thomas thinks it might be "mystery girlfriend" back for round two, and while he's OK with part of that idea, he'd really like some answers first.  Hence the shotgun.

Hmmmm.  This idea fixes the issue I had with it being one of the fae.  If Thomas had knowingly helped one of the fae into the appt, that would have been a favor that would have made said fae indebted to him.  However if she tricked him into it, and gave him a wild ride... well problem solved.

However, I have two things that work against this.  Firstly, the things Harry had to say about Thomas's recent habits made it sound like he wasn't leaving the appt wrecked from wild sex much lately. 

"He's been very distant lately.  And gone almost all of the time.  Day and night.  He sleeps and eats here but mostly when I'm at work.  And when I do see him, it's always like that-in passing.  He's in a hurry to get somewhere."

Also, Harry wasn't gone from the appt terribly long, and didn't notice any coma inducing mayhem having been induced upon his apartment when he got back and found Thomas leaving (for a 2nd time that morning, since Thomas also left shortly before Harry left for the hospital)

1 concept for and 2 arguments against...  I'm not throwing it out, but I'm calling it unlikely.

Keep em coming, I'm having a lot of fun here

Edit:  I was going to add that Thomas might have had trouble feeding off of something supernatural and thus would have noticed something fishy with said mystery girl, however, he did feed off the supernatural baddy in Backup.

[Electric MacButters]

Has anyone considered wether or not Harry met Thomas in his apartment?

Suppose another wizard finessed his (or her) way in past the wards once the house was emptied and started fixing LC.  (S)he takes a couple of hours to deconstruct and repair the spell matrix and starts packing up to leave.  While heading for the exit they hear Harry opening his door and cast a quick glamour to look like Thomas.  Now, this mystery mage would be waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing if the glamour would hold.  Since a wizard trying to secretly fix LC and help Harry would not want to risk leaving any magical clues (or break the first law) (s)he levels a shotgun as a last line of defense in the event that Harry notices the deception and attacks.

If we account for time travel it could have been Harry talking to himself disguised as Thomas while he was trying to escape from his own appartment after fixing his own broken spell.  (has your head exploded yet?)

[tonync66]

Just for clarification, was Bob removed from the lab at any time between him noticing the flaw and it being repaired.  If he wasn't, and it was someone Thomas let in, wouldn't Bob notice such a creature?

[۞†Grey Warden†۞]

My solution is so much easier you don't have to worry about bob or Thomas. If it fixed itself it wouldn't need to get in, because it  was already there.

[Serack]

Has anyone considered wether or not Harry met Thomas in his apartment?

Suppose another wizard finessed his (or her) way in past the wards once the house was emptied and started fixing LC.  (S)he takes a couple of hours to deconstruct and repair the spell matrix and starts packing up to leave.  While heading for the exit they hear Harry opening his door and cast a quick glamour to look like Thomas.  Now, this mystery mage would be waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing if the glamour would hold.  Since a wizard trying to secretly fix LC and help Harry would not want to risk leaving any magical clues (or break the first law) (s)he levels a shotgun as a last line of defense in the event that Harry notices the deception and attacks.

If we account for time travel it could have been Harry talking to himself disguised as Thomas while he was trying to escape from his own appartment after fixing his own broken spell.  (has your head exploded yet?)

Mouse came in with him, and is typically immune to glamours.  Even if it were future Harry, I think Mouse would have had something other than a nonreaction.  And Thomas /did/ move out.

Just for clarification, was Bob removed from the lab at any time between him noticing the flaw and it being repaired.  If he wasn't, and it was someone Thomas let in, wouldn't Bob notice such a creature?

the point of the OP is that Bob was out of the appt when Thomas was alone.  Well the point is a little more intricate than that, but reading the OP should give you that much.

[knnn]

If we account for time travel it could have been Harry talking to himself disguised as Thomas while he was trying to escape from his own appartment after fixing his own broken spell.  (has your head exploded yet?)

If you're going down the "time travelling Harry" alley, I'd simply say that Future Harry revealed himself to Thomas and made him promise not to say anything to Current Harry "or the universe will explode".

+ This would explain the nervousness Thomas has upon meeting Harry -- He's worried about paradoxageddon.

+ Heck, Thomas may even be the person who crashed that battleship of a car into Harry to prevent him from using LC earlier.

- The only weakness I see with this theory is that according to Priscellie's timeline thread, "Backup" happens after PG, and Thomas there doesn't seem to be too knowledgeable about what LC does, something you'd think he would have required Future Harry (or anyone else) to 'splain before letting him do his stuff.

P.S.
Thanks for the original analysis, Serack.  Very good way of looking at things sideways.

[Byers]

Having just reread this section of PG, I am struck by Thomas's reaction to Harry coming back in and by the fact that Thomas was getting ready to move out.

To me this suggests that Thomas was home alone, both Bob and Mouse were out, and someone came took down the wards and started banging the broken door open.  Except it was not Harry.  This is why he's spooked when Harry does the same thing.

Up thread someone made the stipulation that who ever was "let in" by Thomas was okay with he and Harry being roommates.  I don't think was the case.  I think this person knew Thomas was a vamp and told him to move out.  In short I think it was Eb stopping by for a visit.  He might have stopped by to just confront Thomas, but it also gives a window of time for Eb to be the fixer of LC.

Lets also rememeber that we find out that Eb is Harry's grandfather in Changes, and there is that WoJ about after Changes we have all the clues to who fixed LC.  Having Eb be family could give him the added motivation to keep an eye on Harry.

[TheCuriousFan]

In short I think it was Eb stopping by for a visit.  He might have stopped by to just confront Thomas, but it also gives a window of time for Eb to be the fixer of LC.

How did Ebenezar get past Harry's wards? How did he know how to fix Little Chicago (stated that you would need intimate knowledge of the design process IIRC)? And wasn't Thomas getting ready to move for a while?

[Serack]

Having just reread this section of PG, I am struck by Thomas's reaction to Harry coming back in and by the fact that Thomas was getting ready to move out.

To me this suggests that Thomas was home alone, both Bob and Mouse were out, and someone came took down the wards and started banging the broken door open.  Except it was not Harry.  This is why he's spooked when Harry does the same thing.

Up thread someone made the stipulation that who ever was "let in" by Thomas was okay with he and Harry being roommates.  I don't think was the case.  I think this person knew Thomas was a vamp and told him to move out.  In short I think it was Eb stopping by for a visit.  He might have stopped by to just confront Thomas, but it also gives a window of time for Eb to be the fixer of LC.

Lets also rememeber that we find out that Eb is Harry's grandfather in Changes, and there is that WoJ about after Changes we have all the clues to who fixed LC.  Having Eb be family could give him the added motivation to keep an eye on Harry.

Interesting.  There /was/ a lot of really awkward body language and uncomfortable silences.  I think Thomas was already planning on moving out though... hence the $ included with the note.  Another possibility for extra tension might be hinted at with the beer being cold.  There is some extra unknown and important qualities to Mac, so maybe he had something to do with it, and hence Thomas commenting about Mac not being happy if he found out about the beer being kept cold.

2009 Dayton Book Signing @3:25
Could MacAnally possibly be a son of Dionysus?
He's not a Greek god nor a scion of the gods, I'll tell you that much, but we will probably won't get to see much about MacAnally until the big trilogy at the end. 
2011 DC signing
Is Mac ever going to speak more than ten words?
Not for a while. He's not a man of many words, as most truly dangerous people are.