An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Mr. Death]

I'd give the +1 bonus for -0 cost powers, personally, rather than -1 cost ones.

Also, pie is good, yes.

[sinker]

(2) Add the following verbage to any template (including custom templates, but not the pure mortal template) that has a sufficiently low minimum refresh:

If a character with this template has no more than a single power costing at most -1 refresh, then the character is considered a {choose one: Minor Talent, Freshly Emerged, Rookie, etc} and gets a +1 bonus to their starting refresh.  If such a character ever gains a second power or any single power costing more than -1 refresh, then this refresh bonus goes away immediately (which may be mitigated by dropping one or two mortal stunts).

I actually love this idea, because it makes the minor talent a much more tractable template. I had a great idea a long time ago for a minor talent journalist with the soulgaze power, but I realized that even as a journalist that one power just wasn't worth three refresh.

[Becq]

I'd give the +1 bonus for -0 cost powers, personally, rather than -1 cost ones.

That would work, too.

I actually love this idea, because it makes the minor talent a much more tractable template. I had a great idea a long time ago for a minor talent journalist with the soulgaze power, but I realized that even as a journalist that one power just wasn't worth three refresh.

Hooray!  I have support from two opposing camps!  And I agree, it seems as though minor talents have a lot of potential for being fun characters, but the existence of the Pure Mortal bonus one one side and powered characters on the other just squashes them.

[Silverblaze]

I have no issue with house rules.  I create plenty.

Hell, house rules completely removed social combat at our table...we all hate it.

I'm as guilty of violating RAW as anyone can be.

I agree as long as the GM is content with spanking a player who abuses supernatural aspects on his Pure Mortal, go ahead and let it slide.

The +2 Bonus for playing a Pure mortal is a game balance issue.  I agree. Losing it is not a penalty for having supernatural stuff going on.  It balances the game.   However, at high refresh to exteremly high refresh. 

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+2 refresh on a character who can have no powers...does not make them equal to supernatural creatures in the long run.  We're seeing that in our current game.  That however, is off topic and I apologize.

I'll maintain at my table - I'll keep to my rules and position, but I can't stress enough that any other house rules are fine.

I see a light at the end of the tunnel for this debate - so I will simply avoid discussin my opinions of the -0 powers etc.

[Richard_Chilton]

spoiler]+2 refresh on a character who can have no powers...does not make them equal to supernatural creatures in the long run.  We're seeing that in our current game.  That however, is off topic and I apologize.[/spoiler]

We agree on that point.

Richard

[Becq]

Regarding the question of Pure Mortal +2 bonus remaining balanced as base refresh changes:

I agree, and I think it's a more general problem with the concept of having power modifiers in the form of adders.  I don't like how the Catch adder works with that Toughness powers, either.

One answer to this (for Pure Mortal, at least) is to just accept that mortals, regardless of skill, cannot and should not compete on even ground with powerful supernatural creatures.  Of course, this basically means that the players of such characters need to (a) build new characters, or (b) switch to supernatural templates, both of which would mean they don't get to play the character they chose.

Another possible way to deal with this (through house rules) might be to scale the pure mortal bonus.  Instead of treating it as a straight +2, treat it as (for example) a +1 bonus per 4 base refresh.  So once the game's base refresh hits 12, the pure mortals would increase their bonus to +3, and so on.  On the other end of the spectrum, a pure mortal in a "Feet in the Water" game might only get +1 refresh, increasing to +2 once the game reaches 8 refresh. 

[Mr. Death]

One answer to this (for Pure Mortal, at least) is to just accept that mortals, regardless of skill, cannot and should not compete on even ground with powerful supernatural creatures.  Of course, this basically means that the players of such characters need to (a) build new characters, or (b) switch to supernatural templates, both of which would mean they don't get to play the character they chose.

I agree with this, mostly, except I'd add that while a Pure Mortal might not be able to compete on even ground with powerful supernatural creatures, a group of Pure Mortals could manage it (one BCV vs. one Pure Mortal = Lunch; one BCV vs. a half-dozen Pure Mortals will play out quite differently), and there are lots of ways a Pure Mortal in a group of Supernaturals could hold his own and make valuable contributions without having to take up a power.

[Tedronai]

Another possible way to deal with this (through house rules) might be to scale the pure mortal bonus.  Instead of treating it as a straight +2, treat it as (for example) a +1 bonus per 4 base refresh.  So once the game's base refresh hits 12, the pure mortals would increase their bonus to +3, and so on.  On the other end of the spectrum, a pure mortal in a "Feet in the Water" game might only get +1 refresh, increasing to +2 once the game reaches 8 refresh.

I'd love to hear how that plays out in testing, if anyone adopts it in a longer-running campaign.

[Becq]

I agree with this, mostly, except I'd add that while a Pure Mortal might not be able to compete on even ground with powerful supernatural creatures, a group of Pure Mortals could manage it (one BCV vs. one Pure Mortal = Lunch; one BCV vs. a half-dozen Pure Mortals will play out quite differently), and there are lots of ways a Pure Mortal in a group of Supernaturals could hold his own and make valuable contributions without having to take up a power.

I agree entirely with the first part of your statement, and it gives the GM room to maneuver in terms of balancing encounters.  I'm talking more about the effect you mention in the second half of your comment; that is the balance between two player's contibution to the group.  And while it's technically true that a particularly specialized pure mortal might be able to shine within his particular specialty (a social mortal is likely to outshine a combat-monster troll at a dinner party, regardless of refresh), I feel this is highly situational, and that the player of such a character will feel largely irrelevant the rest of the time.  This is probably not too big of an issue at low refresh, but it grows bigger as refresh scales (at 10 refresh, mortals have 20% more refresh/stunts than supernaturals do, but at 20 refresh that bonus drops to 10% -- meanwhile, each stunt the mortal acquires remains weaker than an equivalent refresh worth of powers the other characters pick up).

I haven't played as or with a mortal in a high-refresh game, so I'm only guessing here, but it just doesn't seem fair (and by extension, fun) for the mortal.

[Mr. Death]

Honestly, though, that fits with the setting--Pure Mortals, individually, are really vulnerable and weak compared to strong supernatural entities. Murphy might be as badass as they come, but she has finite limits that her supernatural opponents don't. It's very consistent with the setting that a Pure Mortal is going to have a tougher time as the power level scales up, and that they are much more effective in groups than individually.

That said, I would also be interested to see how the bonus scaling works out.

I, likewise, haven't had a Pure Mortal in a high refresh game (the highest refresh any game I've been in has reached is 12), so I can't speak to how much fun it'd be, but personally I'd take it as a challenge. If you can't get stronger, get creative.

It sure as hell worked wonders for Tavi, after all.

[Silverblaze]

Scaling the refresh bonus might help but I doubt it will help enough...

Actually I can tell you how it plays out on average.  I sat down and did some serious math and ran some sample combats.

Without defensive spells or potions cast in the benefit of the mortal - they are left with mundane armor and no toughness powers.  This is bad.

They can be offensive badasses as long as they have some stored fate points and a few custom stunts, but they just can't take the damage the high end bad guys deal.

 They can still contribute, they can still maneuver and block and full defend.  They just have to prey they don't get hit.  (They never get more stress boxes they can't get more than 1 additional mild per endurance of 5,7,9 etc and a stunt - and yes i know even mild consequences can be detrimental if tagged [ this can be mitigated by tough as nails - the stunt that locks a die or only grants +1 per tag instead of +2])  They can't get better than 2 maybe 3 armor in most games.

Give a pure mortal 3 more refresh or 50 (ok 50 would matter - lets say 10) - it doesn't make them more durable.  I'll admit the huge number of fate points will help a lot, but once the hit lands....

I assert pure mortals stop being relevant beyond the 15 refresh range certainly after 20.
Tough I will admite fate points help - after a few fights before a minor event...they may be out of their stockpile and then...then they're in trouble.

[Silverblaze]

Honestly, though, that fits with the setting--Pure Mortals, individually, are really vulnerable and weak compared to strong supernatural entities. Murphy might be as badass as they come, but she has finite limits that her supernatural opponents don't. It's very consistent with the setting that a Pure Mortal is going to have a tougher time as the power level scales up, and that they are much more effective in groups than individually.

That said, I would also be interested to see how the bonus scaling works out.

I, likewise, haven't had a Pure Mortal in a high refresh game (the highest refresh any game I've been in has reached is 12), so I can't speak to how much fun it'd be, but personally I'd take it as a challenge. If you can't get stronger, get creative.

It sure as hell worked wonders for Tavi, after all.

From experience I can say this  Knights suffer from this also.  Offensive beasts, but like my above post...they start to get torn up when they get hit.

[toturi]

If you can't get stronger, get creative.

It sure as hell worked wonders for Tavi, after all.

Creativity works, but creativity works better if you are stronger. Tavi sure as hell was much better when he combined more power with creativity. Think about how much more powerful a high Refresh supernatural could be if he was creative as well.

[Becq]

Creativity works, but creativity works better if you are stronger. Tavi sure as hell was much better when he combined more power with creativity. Think about how much more powerful a high Refresh supernatural could be if he was creative as well.

Tavi's "player" had also planned all along to swap out the pure mortal template with something more ... "interesting" at a later point in the campaign.  With the GM's approval, of course. 

Who knows?  Perhaps Murphy might do likewise?

[Silverblaze]

Tavi's "player" had also planned all along to swap out the pure mortal template with something more ... "interesting" at a later point in the campaign.  With the GM's approval, of course. 

Who knows?  Perhaps Murphy might do likewise?

Knight Murphy!