Author Topic: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent  (Read 78146 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #240 on: April 13, 2012, 01:43:54 AM »
Then we move on to how people believe that we determine whether a template deserves a bonus or not. Personally I believe that a template should award a bonus if you can't buy powers without changing templates.
Which, really, only applies to the Pure Mortal template. I really fail to see how you would make a different template that gets the bonus (via not having any powers) but is not the Pure Mortal template.
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Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #241 on: April 13, 2012, 02:18:09 AM »
Which, really, only applies to the Pure Mortal template. I really fail to see how you would make a different template that gets the bonus (via not having any powers) but is not the Pure Mortal template.

I believe that several options have already been presented.

Offline Becq

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #242 on: April 13, 2012, 02:49:25 AM »
Which, really, only applies to the Pure Mortal template. I really fail to see how you would make a different template that gets the bonus (via not having any powers) but is not the Pure Mortal template.
Not strictly true.  Every template should have powers that are appropriate and (many) powers that aren't.  For example, you can't buy Inhuman Strength as a Wizard without either changing your template or adding a second template.  The difference is that the Pure Mortal template has no powers on the 'allowed' list and has no personal access to supernatural power of any sort -- and because of this gets the refresh bonus to compensate for the lack of flexibility.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #243 on: April 13, 2012, 03:10:45 AM »
I believe that several options have already been presented.

Well then in my games I guess they'd be Pure Mortal or Something Else Without  +2 Refresh

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #244 on: April 13, 2012, 03:12:07 AM »
has no personal access to supernatural power of any sort -- and because of this gets the refresh bonus to compensate for the lack of flexibility.

This part, here, is deceptive, and not supported by the text.

The reasons for the bonus are explicitly presented.  They do not include the ban on supernatural power beyond the ban on supernatural Powers.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #245 on: April 13, 2012, 03:26:00 AM »

This part, here, is deceptive, and not supported by the text.

The reasons for the bonus are explicitly presented.  They do not include the ban on supernatural power beyond the ban on supernatural Powers.

Well, then I think your table will be very different from many people on this forum.  Not a bad thing.  Just a thing.

I think with enough munchkin work a Pure Mortal can be created with enough aspects that make them have more powers than some base templates.

invoke for effect! GO!

Seven Aspects - all can technically go on one character (they shouldn't mind you)...but even one of these makes the chracter not purely human, not a Pure Mortal)

Budding Pyromancer - spontaneous combustion
Wolf Blood In My Veins - use to track by scent or something?
I See Dead People - see dead people
A Cat Always Lands On It's Feet - no damage from falls
Blood Of Christ Runs In My Family - holy touch or...just about any other holy power eh?
I Lived Through A Gamma Bomb - temporarily immune to radiation (works for anything really...make a fire aspect etc.
Dad Was A Shapeshifter - small changes in face to look different so they can't be ID'd in line-ups

the list goes on....

Those effects are not things Pure Mortals do; not in my games.  Maybe they do in your's. 
I won't let things like this fly on a character that gets +2 refresh.  No ifs, ands, or buts.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #246 on: April 13, 2012, 03:51:10 AM »
The post I quoted was not truly discussing Pure Mortal characters, though, but characters of custom templates and whether the Pure Mortal bonus might ever be appropriate outside its original template.

As for your hypothetical list...
effects indistinguishable to the character from 'spontaneous combustion' is available for Pure Mortals thanks to the metagame nature of invokes.  this has been previously established in this thread.  this is not even a matter of flavour vs mechanics.  there is no need for the character to even understand the source or nature of the effects of an invoke, let alone be the cause of them.
'tracking by scent' would generally be best represented by a bonus to the roll, or an off-setting of penalties to the roll (which amounts to the same thing, ultimately), and as such is generally an effect available to pure mortals given a different flavour
Just because you land on your feat doesn't mean you suffer no injury from your fall.  This is a case of an over-reaching invoke, not of an over-powerful, or even Powered, aspect.
'just about any other holy power'?  really?  again, an issue of the GM not policing the power of invokes, not of a problematic aspect.  I'd run that aspect about as leniently as I'd run 'Devoted Man of God', and not a whit looser
then we have yet more overreaching invokes followed by...
a bonus to the relevant roll no different from 'I guess I just have one of those faces', or 'Easily Forgettable', or 'A Cosmetics Department in My Handbag'


These effects, save only, possibly, 'I see dead people', are ALL effects available, with, at most, minor flavour substitutions, to RAW Pure Mortals
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #247 on: April 13, 2012, 03:57:44 AM »
The post I quoted was not truly discussing Pure Mortal characters, though, but characters of custom templates and whether the Pure Mortal bonus might ever be appropriate outside its original template.

As for your hypothetical list...
effects indistinguishable to the character from 'spontaneous combustion' is available for Pure Mortals thanks to the metagame nature of invokes.  this has been previously established in this thread.  this is not even a matter of flavour vs mechanics.  there is no need for the character to even understand the source or nature of the effects of an invoke, let alone be the cause of them.
'tracking by scent' would generally be best represented by a bonus to the roll, or an off-setting of penalties to the roll (which amounts to the same thing, ultimately), and as such is generally an effect available to pure mortals given a different flavour
Just because you land on your feat doesn't mean you suffer no injury from your fall.  This is a case of an over-reaching invoke, not of an over-powerful, or even Powered, aspect.
'just about any other holy power'?  really?  again, an issue of the GM not policing the power of invokes, not of a problematic aspect.  I'd run that aspect about as leniently as I'd run 'Devoted Man of God', and not a whit looser
then we have yet more overreaching invokes followed by...
a bonus to the relevant roll no different from 'I guess I just have one of those faces', or 'Easily Forgettable', or 'A Cosmetics Department in My Handbag'


These effects, save only, possibly, 'I see dead people', are ALL effects available, with, at most, minor flavour substitutions, to RAW Pure Mortals

Yes agreed on all fronts...but you did not name the aspects I did.  Aspects names matter a lot.  When you change the name, the aspect changes somewhat.

You also had no real rebuttal for "I see dead people". 

Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #248 on: April 13, 2012, 04:05:03 AM »
One of the things that bugs me when I look at a list like that is you are looking at the means and not the end.

So when invoking "Budding Pyromancer" what are you trying to achieve? A distraction? Easily done with mundane aspects. A fire? Easily done with mundane aspects. Etc.

Also I call shenanigans on "I lived through a gamma bomb". It has no justification, no reason why you lived through a gamma bomb, so it can't be invoked or compelled. It could just as easily be "I lived through a gamma bomb (by being very far away from it)" which would never be invoked for immunity, but for knowing where to be and where not to be.

I was going to say that there's only one thing I can think of that can only be achieved with supernatural aspects (that would be transferring to the NeverNever) but while I was sitting here I thought of a way to achieve that through mortal aspects.

Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #249 on: April 13, 2012, 04:07:34 AM »
Also "I see dead people" could be a really interesting aspect, but it still isn't half the Ghost speaker power.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #250 on: April 13, 2012, 04:11:54 AM »
You'd say that isn't supernatural?  Also, traversing the nevernever as a pure mortal?

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #251 on: April 13, 2012, 04:15:09 AM »
One of the things that bugs me when I look at a list like that is you are looking at the means and not the end.

So when invoking "Budding Pyromancer" what are you trying to achieve? A distraction? Easily done with mundane aspects. A fire? Easily done with mundane aspects. Etc.

Also I call shenanigans on "I lived through a gamma bomb". It has no justification, no reason why you lived through a gamma bomb, so it can't be invoked or compelled. It could just as easily be "I lived through a gamma bomb (by being very far away from it)" which would never be invoked for immunity, but for knowing where to be and where not to be.

I was going to say that there's only one thing I can think of that can only be achieved with supernatural aspects (that would be transferring to the NeverNever) but while I was sitting here I thought of a way to achieve that through mortal aspects.

No sense of humor at all.  None.  I'd compell it for mindless rages, extra strength, great luck, bad luck, having the army after you....  you know what nevermind...

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #252 on: April 13, 2012, 04:24:56 AM »
you did not name the aspects I did.
I named the effects you called out as problematically available by way of the aspects you named.
That same 'I See Dead People' aspect name could be present on handfuls of the (Pure Mortal) residents of the state mental institution, down the road a ways from the town the game takes place in, and it wouldn't make them supernatural, just crazy (and might still let them see real ghosts on occasion; children, animals, and the insane are often called out as relatively common exceptions to ghostly invisibility).


You also had no real rebuttal for "I see dead people".

And then I called that fact out.  See the last line of my rebuttal post.


I was going to say that there's only one thing I can think of that can only be achieved with supernatural aspects (that would be transferring to the NeverNever) but while I was sitting here I thought of a way to achieve that through mortal aspects.

That one's exceptionally easily achieved by way of 'externalized' supernatural aspects: just have someone else open the door for you.
...
Which, it occurs to me, would be a fine way to represent seeing ghosts and the like, too: just have an indebted spirit, sprite, or other minor supernatural entity, or small army thereof, that won't draw unwanted attention, follow you around, warn you of impending danger, and illuminate the invisible, etc
Call it: 'All this for Pizza...Who'd'a thunk?'
Oh, hey, look, that single externalized supernatural aspect (and remember, we agreed that it being externalized means it's perfectly kosher for even a RAW Pure Mortal) lets the character have access to: effects, like fire, at a distance and without immediately obvious cause, tracking the normally untraceable, interacting with the normally undetectable, providing minor timely benefits (ie. +2 bonus) to numerous skill checks, and far more

in fact, it provides everything on your list that isn't beyond the capacity of a simple invoke or invoke-for-effect
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Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #253 on: April 13, 2012, 04:26:49 AM »
You'd say that isn't supernatural?

I figure this isn't really the important part anymore. We've acknowledged that custom templates could receive the refresh bonus. As long as the template has no available powers, and all of what they do can be achieved by similar mortals, then that template should get the refresh bonus regardless of what their story is.

Also, traversing the nevernever as a pure mortal?

Murphy has an aspect that could easily get this done. :)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:33:19 AM by sinker »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #254 on: April 13, 2012, 02:41:59 PM »
I'm still not seeing what could differentiate this hypothetical other template enough from Pure Mortal to actually make it a different template instead of just Pure Mortal.
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