An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Tedronai]

I'm asking, simply, for the rules. You see, people have shifted the rules, assumptions, and goals of this debate countless times during the discussion, and I would prefer to have a baseline from which to work, rather than have the rhetorical focus shifted mid-discussion.

I can't in good conscience provide the 'rules' for defining the boundaries a concept that I did not introduce and have only a single line of text to base my understanding on, when the one who provided that line and the accompanying concept, as well as another who claims to support it, is available to do so themselves.
ie. I do not sufficiently understand what you are proposing based on that single vague statement.  Please expand and clarify.

So, what do you mean by "something"?

By 'something' I mean 'whatever it is you provide to clarify your intent'.
Specifically, my expressed preference was in relation to prior attempts to define exclusion from the Pure Mortal bonus based on the mechanical capabilities provided by a supernatural aspect (discussed capabilities included production of fire at a distance and luck, respectively) which were lated pointed out to be available with virtually no change whatsoever to a Pure Mortal, and thus not meaningful as examples of what can be done supernaturally that cannot be done mundanely.  Thus, if mechanical capabilities were your intention, then what I would prefer as the defining boundary would be the point at which mundane aspects cannot achieve a desired goal under the given circumstances, wherever that happens to fall.

Do you want an effect? Or the rationalization for that effect?
The narrative result of an Invoke? Or the narrative logic which makes that Invoke acceptable?

See, that's the problem.  I don't know whether 'mimicking powers' is a reference to effect, rationalization, narrative result, or narrative logic.  That's part of what I was inquiring about.

[computerking]

I see most of this argument being derived from a stubborn refusal to include "Template" as a character trait.  With that, this becomes easy -- either the character sheet has "Template: Pure Mortal" on it, in which case the character is wholely non-supernatural but does get the +2 refresh bonus that is built into the Template, or the character has "Template: <anything else>" on it, in which case there's no +2 refresh bonus.

Even without having an explict "Template:" entry, though, every character does in fact have a Template defined on his sheet in the form of a High Concept, which is linked to Template. 

Umm, On the Character Phases Worksheet, there is, explicitly, a "Template" entry, which must be defined. Does that help decide things?

[Richard_Chilton]

The RAW on Templates:
Pg 41 High Concept "...usually reflecting the character template in some way."
Pg 52 "Because picking a template, high concept, and trouble are all linked, they’re grouped together."
Pg 53 the entire "Choose a Template" section.  Especially "The template is crucial to creating your character[; even with Quick Character Creation (page 68), this step is necessary."

I could go on, but why? If the above doesn't show that all characters have templates then nothing else would.

Richard

[toturi]

IThat's basically the point I was indirectly trying to make in my little survey.  If you want to have a supernatural aspect, that's cool.  If your table wants to let such aspects grant aspect to minor supernatural capabilities, that's great, too.  But having a supernatural aspect is exactly the same thing as choosing a supernatural Template, which means that you are something other than a Pure Mortal.  And anything that is not Pure Mortal should not get the Pure Mortal refresh bonus.

What and how broad is your definition of a supernatural Aspect?

[Silverblaze]

devonapple, or silverblaze for that matter, how would you define 'close to mimicking a power'?

I feel that this may be leading me into a trap in my own logic so I included a few disclaimers. 

The following will be more like a list than a sentence.

I'm not saying with this post that there can never be an exception, but such exceptions should be few and far between.   

shapechanging, casting any form of spell like effect that causes actual damage, flight, water breathing, turning invisible (not being extra stealthy, I mean invisible).  Size changing, teleportation (actual teleportation), running at mach speeds (unless already capable and such movement and the asepct is only adding a +2 to athletics).

 Breathing fire (may allow high concept to do something like this (but not a pure mortal)
Super strength/holy touch (high concept again...not pure mortal)
other spell like effects (high concpet maybe - not pure mortal)

aspects are clearly not crated equal since some beasts and monsters and objects can have aspects like hudreds of feet long - players can't or shouldn't imho.

[sinker]

The RAW on Templates:
Pg 41 High Concept "...usually reflecting the character template in some way."
Pg 52 "Because picking a template, high concept, and trouble are all linked, they’re grouped together."
Pg 53 the entire "Choose a Template" section.  Especially "The template is crucial to creating your character[; even with Quick Character Creation (page 68), this step is necessary."

I could go on, but why? If the above doesn't show that all characters have templates then nothing else would.

Richard

Interesting then, that not a single thing in Our World has one. Additionally this would completely disallow characters like Kincaid or Macfinn. Unless of course we decide that a custom template functions in that respect.

[computerking]

Interesting then, that not a single thing in Our World has one. Additionally this would completely disallow characters like Kincaid or Macfinn. Unless of course we decide that a custom template functions in that respect.

I thought that was previously established in several threads regarding Scions.

Also, Under Total Refresh Cost, characters that receive the +2 bonus to refresh are denoted by a Template note: (Pure Mortal). This seems to signify that only Pure Mortals get the bonus, and that the extra Refresh in their Total is due to their Template being Pure Mortal.

[Richard_Chilton]

Interesting then, that not a single thing in Our World has one. Additionally this would completely disallow characters like Kincaid or Macfinn. Unless of course we decide that a custom template functions in that respect.

Um, have you ever heard of space limitations? Of trying to cram everything in the least possible amount of pages?

But the heart of this issue that NPCs are not PCs.  No characters are listed in OW.  NPCs are, and in many cases the NPC has an abbreviated stat description - one that gives only the information that is likely to come into play.

Read the sidebar about whether or not Toot-Toot is a social character OR if he qualifies as a weapon.  A weapon welded with the Contacts skill.

OW has additional "template" like thingsthat are useful when building NPCs.  There are generic entries for various creatures that you build your NPCs around.  Some of them (for example - changeling) share names with Templates while others (for example: Pixies) do not.

Richard

[devonapple]

I believe an Invocation of a Supernatural-themed Aspect counts as skirting a power if it satisfies one or more of the following criteria:

- bends reality (for or against the character) in a way that it wouldn't for another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- results in an effect (for or against the character) in a way that wouldn't or couldn't happen for another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- represents the character asserting a change in the world in a way that wouldn't be appropriate for another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- relies on an inherent quality in the character that couldn't be similarly accomplished by another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- relies on an a supernatural justification of any sort to accomplish something that could or couldn't be similarly accomplished by another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- emulates or replicates Evocation, Channeling, Thaumaturgy, Rituals, or any other Supernatural Power, in a way which couldn't be similarly accomplished by another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience

I think when it comes down to it, a lot of things which can be accomplished by Skill and experience *could* be replicated supernaturally. Heck, lots of Thaumaturgy spells are simply supercharged Skill rolls taken to implausible levels of effect and scope. But there will always be things which *no* amount of Skill or experience could plausibly replicate, and that is the realm of the Supernatural.

"Luck" is one of those gray areas: in some systems, it is an inherent attribute of a character; in others, it is a power that can be purchased (though in those cases, it can usually be purchased even in low-power or non-superhero settings, because it is considered a gray area even in fiction). As such, I don't feel it to be an adequate gauge for something like this. That said, one may be able to invoke "Lucky" and "Luck Scion" for similar effects, but only "Luck Scion" will be able to justify being able to pass into the Nevernever through a casino or underground gambling den: the "Lucky" guy will just have to find another, more statistically plausible way.

[Silverblaze]

I believe an Invocation of a Supernatural-themed Aspect counts as skirting a power if it satisfies one or more of the following criteria:

- bends reality (for or against the character) in a way that it wouldn't for another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- results in an effect (for or against the character) in a way that wouldn't or couldn't happen for another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- represents the character asserting a change in the world in a way that wouldn't be appropriate for another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- relies on an inherent quality in the character that couldn't be similarly accomplished by another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- relies on an a supernatural justification of any sort to accomplish something that could or couldn't be similarly accomplished by another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience
- emulates or replicates Evocation, Channeling, Thaumaturgy, Rituals, or any other Supernatural Power, in a way which couldn't be similarly accomplished by another, Pure Mortal character with similar Skills and experience

I think when it comes down to it, a lot of things which can be accomplished by Skill and experience *could* be replicated supernaturally. Heck, lots of Thaumaturgy spells are simply supercharged Skill rolls taken to implausible levels of effect and scope. But there will always be things which *no* amount of Skill or experience could plausible replicate, and that is the realm of the Supernatural.

"Luck" is one of those gray areas: in some systems, it is an inherent attribute of a character; in others, it is a power that can be purchased (though in those cases, it can usually be purchased even in low-power or non-superhero settings, because it is considered a gray area even in fiction). As such, I don't feel it to be an adequate gauge for something like this. That said, one may be able to invoke "Lucky" and "Luck Scion" for similar effects, but only "Luck Scion" will be able to justify being able to pass into the Nevernever through a casino or underground gambling den: the "Lucky" guy will just have to find another, more statistically plausible way.

I consider myself quite prolific and articulate, but this was masterfully done.  I can't say it better. I just got specific and have time constraints.  I know it wasn't your intention, but thanks.  This is pretty much my opinion also.

[Becq]

What and how broad is your definition of a supernatural Aspect?

To steal from Justice Potter Stewart,
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["supernatural aspect"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the aspect involved in this discussion is not that."

Now that I've got that out of my system, I'd say that devonapple did a good job of nailing down a pretty broad definition of "supernatural-themed aspect" which I largely agree with.  Although for the discussion at hand, I would have a slightly more narrow definition for what fits into the Pure Mortal Template, because simply having a "supernaturally-themed" aspect doesn't kick a character out of the Pure Mortal club.

It's perfectly fine for a Pure Mortal's aspects to refer to external magical influences.  For example, Murphy has the High Concept "Special Investigations Lead Detective", which could be argued puts her frequently into the position of having supernatural stuff happen to her (nah, really?!).  And she has an additional aspect "I Don’t Know if I Trust Dresden, But He Gets Results" which gives her indirect access to Wizardry, which she frequently uses to gain information that another equally skilled investigator would never uncover.  Yet she's Pure Mortal because they represent access to or a connection with the supernatural, without having any personal capabilities.  Marcone is a "Freeholding Lord", making him a "supernatural player", and he has access to Gard's magic ... but has no inherent supernatural abilities.

So I'd probably encapsulate it this way: if the aspect indicates that there is something about who the character is that is in any way supernatural, or that there is something about what the character can do without the help of anyone else that is supernatural then it's a supernatural aspect and removes the character from the ranks of Purely Mortal.  (Note that being the bearer of an IoP counts as being able to do supernatural things without the help of anyone else, but having a friend/protector/ancestor/whatever who can do supernatural things on your behalf does not.)  This may or may not be a legally-watertight definition, in which case I refer you to the Stewart quote I mentioned above.

And as a further note, I'd like to stress that it is entirely possible and fair for a Pure Mortal to "borrow" supernatural capabilities without losing their Pure Mortal status.  There have been a number of examples of this occuring in the novels.

And finally, regarding the templates and character sheets topic, I'd note that template is on the worksheet, not the character sheet, and that many people gloss over defining their custom templates.  However, as I said before I believe that a character's High Concept must indicate that character's template (even if the template in question is a custom one).  For example, Sigrun Gard is an "Honest-to-Odin Valkyrie" -- her template is "Valkyrie" which is a custom "Scion" template.  When I say that every character needs a template, I don't mean that it must only be one listed in YS.  (Kincaid's High Concept is not a good HC -- but was perhaps the best that OW's authors could come up with given the information Jim's given us.)

[toturi]

If a Pure Mortal were to have a supernatural aspect, for example, "Very minor magical talent" that is not his High Concept, would he lose his Pure Mortal status?

Edit: In other words, if a Pure Mortal has a you-know-it-when-you-saw-it supernatural aspect (but without gaining any Powers), would he lose the Pure Mortal status?

[Tedronai]

Not in any game I ran.

[devonapple]

If a Pure Mortal were to have a supernatural aspect, for example, "Very minor magical talent" that is not his High Concept, would he lose his Pure Mortal status?

Edit: In other words, if a Pure Mortal has a you-know-it-when-you-saw-it supernatural aspect (but without gaining any Powers), would he lose the Pure Mortal status?

Yes, I would, because that Aspect is a vector for narrative outcomes based on things which another Pure Mortal would not be able to accomplish, even with the same Skills and life experiences. I would encourage the player to help come up with SOME sort of supernatural power in addition to that Aspect, and if the player opted not to, then they would still lose access to the Pure Mortal template. Heck, by canon, if they have (or will eventually display) Wizard-level talent, they will also be found to have always had [-0] Wizard's Constitution.

To steal from Justice Potter Stewart,
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["supernatural aspect"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the aspect involved in this discussion is not that."

I totally wanted to use that quote as well! Thank you for including it.

It's perfectly fine for a Pure Mortal's aspects to refer to external magical influences.  For example, Murphy has the High Concept "Special Investigations Lead Detective", which could be argued puts her frequently into the position of having supernatural stuff happen to her (nah, really?!).  And she has an additional aspect "I Don’t Know if I Trust Dresden, But He Gets Results" which gives her indirect access to Wizardry, which she frequently uses to gain information that another equally skilled investigator would never uncover.  Yet she's Pure Mortal because they represent access to or a connection with the supernatural, without having any personal capabilities.  Marcone is a "Freeholding Lord", making him a "supernatural player", and he has access to Gard's magic ... but has no inherent supernatural abilities.

I agree with all of this.

[Silverblaze]

What happens if a vanilla mortal (Pure Mortal) loses all of their powers or IoP?  Would they get back, even if only temporarily, their +2 Refresh?