An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Richard_Chilton]

I don't believe that an aspect can, without the presence of Powers, make a character not get a Refresh bonus. But some aspects might not be appropriate on a character without Powers.

Strange, I have been saying that for sometime.

PS: The son of Toot-toot is a really bad example for this, because he could well have Chosen mortality.

There's a difference between:
Name: William Flowerbane
HC: Evil Son Of Toot-Toot.
Trouble: No one takes me seriously.
Template: Changeling
Background
(To be filled in later)
Power Level: Choose one
Refresh: Consult Power Level, then add +2 (Not taking any powers so claiming the Pure Mortal bonus).
And
Name: William Flowerbane
HC: Toot-Toot's Son Who Chose Mortality.
Trouble: No one takes me seriously.
Template: Pure Human

One that I thought would be obvious enough that I would haven't to post the second version - based on the Template name alone.  On YS pg 74 it talks about "...to make the other Choice to become purely mortal."
Ergo, once a changeling has had his choice he is a Pure Mortal, not a Changeling - or a Fairy.  They even use the wording Pure Mortal.

Tedronai has repeatedly posted statements like:

Death or Richard, would you care to address, in any meaningful way beyond forcing these characters to take a power, the explicit explanation of the reasoning behind the Pure Mortal bonus being that they have no supernatural Powers?  With particular emphasis on the absence of any mention of other representations of supernatural anything as a contributing factor to that compensation?

The reasoning for the existence of the Pure Mortal bonus is explicitly stated.
This is fact.  It is not up for debate.
Attempting to posit new reasoning for its existence to support a conclusion denied by the existing, official, explicit statement, is fallacy.

The fundamental question as I have understood it for the majority of this thread is whether or not a supernatural aspect necessitates the loss of the Pure Mortal bonus, in its own right or by necessitating a power which then triggers the loss of the bonus.

The fundamental question as I have understood it for the majority of this thread is whether or not a supernatural aspect necessitates the loss of the Pure Mortal bonus, in its own right or by necessitating a power which then triggers the loss of the bonus.

As for Toot-Toot's changeling son:
even though he has no Powers one of his aspects (his High Concept) precludes him from claiming the Pure Mortal template - not the Refresh Bonus which he is entitled to unless he takes a power (at least I assume that was the point of his edit).

You have said you agree with him to the point that you don't see how anyone could (in good conscious) argue with his words.   I see things differently, that if you take the "High Concept: Council level magical talent, ZERO training" that it is an "aspect[s that] might not be appropriate on a character without Powers".

Richard

[sinker]

Hmm. People are making the argument that the template/aspect requires the powers, but have you ever thought that it might be the other way around sometimes? I'd really encourage the player who made the changeling with no powers to look at a different template. The point of the changeling is to have access to fey power. If you don't want that, then maybe it's not the right template for you.

[Tedronai]

A player might wish a character who will eventually, maybe, manifest fae powers, but who has yet to do so to any meaningful degree (ie. worthy of being represented by a Power).  I see sense neither in denying such a player access to that future power (as any Pure Mortal can potentially gain supernatural power over the course of a game, or even a single session) nor in having them penalized in the present for what they might take up in the future (ie. deny them the Pure Mortal bonus just for taking the HC 'Great Grandson of Faery So-And-So' or deny them the ability to invoke that aspect for minor effects appropriate to such a diluted/undeveloped/etc potential).

[sinker]

Agreed. Something that occurred to me last night as I dozed was that the only difference between those two concepts that Richard proposed ("Evil son of Toot-Toot" and "Toot-Toot's son who chose mortality"), is that one character has the potential to gain Fey powers, and the other does not. They both have natural predispositions for trickery, they would both be small and quick (though not supernaturally so), they both have a relationship with the Fey, and could call on that for help. I would make them both "Pure Mortal"

[Richard_Chilton]

If the rule was "Any character without powers gain +2 refresh" then we would not be having this debate.  The Changeling Template, with its ability to be made with 0 powers, would be the clear place to establish that - yet the book does not say that.

Let's compare the write ups.  The first bits are identical.
Pure Mortal:
Minimum Refresh Cost: –0.
Changeling:
Minimum Refresh Cost: –0.

But the rest of the description is very different.
Pure Mortal:
Minimum Refresh Cost: –0. Instead, increase your starting refresh by 2 before taking any mortal stunts.
Changeling:
Minimum Refresh Cost: –0. The total cost for changelings depends entirely on how deeply your character has made the Choice at the start of play, and this will change over the course of the game—that’s the point.
----

Notice anywhere in the Changeling write up that says: "And if they haven't picked up any powers yet they get +2 Refresh", because I don't.

Changelings are very conceptually different from "Pure mortals are ordinary (or mundanely extraordinary!) people who don’t have anything supernatural going on—save perhaps for the company they keep or the things they’ve seen."  There is nothing ordinary about them.  They have supernatural blood running through their veins.  They have a supernatural heritage that they embrace at will.  They are a different template and thus do not gain the bonuses from another template - no more than a Pure Mortal can decide to gain Fae power 'just cause'.

They both have natural predispositions for trickery, they would both be small and quick (though not supernaturally so), they both have a relationship with the Fey, and could call on that for help. I would make them both "Pure Mortal"

Why would they both have a "natural predispositions for trickery" - when a character chooses mortality he gives up his Fae nature.
Why would they both be small? If embracing part of your Fae nature made you small (or turned your hair a watery green) then choosing mortality would revert it to its natural colour.
Why would both have relations to the Fey Courts?  From Summer Knight:
"And until then I'm under the rule of the Court of my fae father. "
it is clear that once you choose mortality your ties to the court are broken - unless you (as a mortal) decide to reestablish them.

Please point out any part of the Pure Mortal Template that says "can, at any time, tap into supernatural powers".

Please point out any part of the Changeling Template that implies that they get a +2 for not having realised their supernatural potential.

Richard

[sinker]

Why would they both have a "natural predispositions for trickery" - when a character chooses mortality he gives up his Fae nature.

But not their parentage. A child gains something from their parent, regardless of whether they are supernaturally connected. Additionally if someone has a certain upbringing, their adult self is shaped by that, and that's not going to change drastically simply because they say so. It's simple genetics and environmental development.

Why would they both be small? If embracing part of your Fae nature made you small (or turned your hair a watery green) then choosing mortality would revert it to its natural colour.

Again, the child is always going to retain a bit of their parent. They would both be a little on the short side, because their parent was a little on the short side. Why would they suddenly grow a foot regardless of age and development stage?

Why would both have relations to the Fey Courts?  From Summer Knight:
"And until then I'm under the rule of the Court of my fae father. "
it is clear that once you choose mortality your ties to the court are broken - unless you (as a mortal) decide to reestablish them.

This is of course going to vary from table to table, but the mortal is still related to the Fey. Nothing is going to change that. Toot-Toot was your dad. He always will be.

Please point out any part of the Pure Mortal Template that says "can, at any time, tap into supernatural powers".

If this character ever takes a
supernatural power, this refresh bonus goes
away immediately (which may be mitigated by
dropping one or two mortal stunts)

My major point though is to look at those two aspects. They could be invoked or compelled in exactly the same ways to create exactly the same effects (and additionally I would argue that if the mortal still has Toot-Toot in his High Concept, then he still has an ongoing relationship that is important to the core of his character). Neither has powers. Both have a supernatural aspect (which would preclude the "Pure Mortal" template according to you). So why should they be different?

[Mr. Death]

I don't believe that an aspect can, without the presence of Powers, make a character not get a Refresh bonus.

The Changeling template seems to imply otherwise, as has been pointed out.

But some aspects might not be appropriate on a character without Powers.

This I agree with 100%. And I feel that aspects stating existing magical or supernatural ability are such aspects.

My position on this is a logical extension of the separation between mechanics and narrative. Refresh does not exist inside the game world. It only exists within the mechanical framework. So removing it based on something that doesn't exist within the mechanical framework is just silly.

You're right that nobody in the Dresden narrative is going to talk about their refresh rating. But they do talk quite a bit about Free Will, which is explicitly what the Refresh rate represents.

You could certainly interpret, say, Uriel's job in preserving Free Will as keeping Harry and others under their games' refresh rates, for example.

@Sinker: There's a whole lot of nature vs. nurture in there--I've known meathead guys who've sired scrawny geeks and vice verse.

@Haru: Once again you've pretty much summed up what I've been trying to say better than I could. GET OUT OF MY HEAD, CHARLES! D:

PS: The son of Toot Toot is an awesome idea and someone should stat it out. All of a sudden, this kid shows up at Harry's door and offers his services as Squire to Za Lord.

[sinker]

You're right that nobody in the Dresden narrative is going to talk about their refresh rating. But they do talk quite a bit about Free Will, which is explicitly what the Refresh rate represents.

I don't know if I agree with this entirely. Sure Refresh represents free will, but that's not the only thing it represents, and measuring someone's free will is not the only reason for refresh. Saying something like this is discounting the entirety of a complex concept.

@Sinker: There's a whole lot of nature vs. nurture in there--I've known meathead guys who've sired scrawny geeks and vice verse.

Agreed. I actually addressed that (the nurture part of your equation is also known as environmental development). I'm merely saying that a changeling choosing mortality isn't going to change who they are, it only makes them no longer supernaturally so. So a big strong changeling will not suddenly become tiny and weak, they will simply no longer be greater than any other big strong mortal. Still able to bench press an impressive amount, but no longer able to dead lift a car.

[Richard_Chilton]

But not their parentage. A child gains something from their parent, regardless of whether they are supernaturally connected. Additionally if someone has a certain upbringing, their adult self is shaped by that, and that's not going to change drastically simply because they say so. It's simple genetics and environmental development.

Actually, they do give up half their parentage when they choose.  Either the mortal half or the Fairy half.

Which is probably the reason most of them try to put off choosing.  Once they choose they will become a new person, and that's a scary thing to do.

Again, the child is always going to retain a bit of their parent. They would both be a little on the short side, because their parent was a little on the short side. Why would they suddenly grow a foot regardless of age and development stage?

When talking about Humans, sure, but the supernatural is in play here.
Example: As a Changeling Meryl was a "tall, muscular young woman from the funeral home, her muddy green hair hanging lankly over her eyes and one cheek".  Her hair colour was a direct result of her troll heritage - having changed when she needed to be supernaturally strong.  If she had chosen to be human her hair colour would have turned back - and she could have lost her muscles and her height.  Becoming a new woman - one not defined by her Troll heritage.  A person who was a Pure Mortal with no Troll in her.

Why would a 22 year old changeling grow a foot or two when he decided to be mortal? Because the Fae part keeping him small was gone.

In

This is of course going to vary from table to table, but the mortal is still related to the Fey. Nothing is going to change that. Toot-Toot was your dad. He always will be.

That is like saying: "Fix is Winter Court.  Nothing will ever change that."

Fix became mortal so (like all mortals) he could choose his relationship to the Fairies.  He decided to turn his back on Winter and become Summer.

My major point though is to look at those two aspects. They could be invoked or compelled in exactly the same ways to create exactly the same effects (and additionally I would argue that if the mortal still has Toot-Toot in his High Concept, then he still has an ongoing relationship that is important to the core of his character). Neither has powers. Both have a supernatural aspect (which would preclude the "Pure Mortal" template according to you). So why should they be different?

They do not both have "a supernatural aspect".  One does, and one says "I used to be something else, but I choose to give that up to be mortal".  It refers to a relationship that doesn't involve anything supernatural, no more than a HC of "I Play Alfred To Wizard Edward's Batman" would be supernatural.

A pure mortal son of Toot-Toot has a nice backstory.  A Changeling son of Toot-Toot can, at any point in his life, say "I need to be very small" and boom! he has Diminutive Size.  If a pure mortal son of Toot-Toot needed glamour he says "F@@K! I made the wrong choice!".

And if the Changeling son Toot-Toot makes the decision to become the Pure Mortal son of Toot-toot, he grows to his old height, or the height determined solely by his human gene - whichever is higher.

Richard

[sinker]

And if the Changeling son Toot-Toot makes the decision to become the Pure Mortal son of Toot-toot, he grows to his old height, or the height determined solely by his human gene - whichever is higher.

I don't think Fix (literally the only example we have of a changeling choosing mortality) bears this out. Fix did not change significantly when he chose mortal.

[Richard_Chilton]

PS: The son of Toot Toot is an awesome idea and someone should stat it out. All of a sudden, this kid shows up at Harry's door and offers his services as Squire to Za Lord.

I posted something along those lines...
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25470.msg1081135.html#msg1081135

Richard

[Richard_Chilton]

I don't think Fix (literally the only example we have of a changeling choosing mortality) bears this out. Fix did not change significantly when he chose mortal.

The problem is, we don't know much about Changeling Fix - other than he was Winter Court.

What was his parent? More importantly, how close was he to his Fairy side?

Because if he was -0 (hadn't tapped his potential) or -1 (had barely tapped his potential) his looks would not have changed much.

Richard

[Haru]

I see quite a lot of difference between Changeling son of Toot-Toot and Mortal son of Toot-Toot. While you are right, both of them can take up powers as long as they have the refresh for it, I would not allow the mortal son the same easy access as the changeling son would have.
The changeling son could easily take up glamours for example, the mortal son could not, at least I would not allow him unless he had some really compelling arguments.
On the other hand, the mortal son could become a faery night. He could pick up a sword of the cross. Hell, maybe his mother was a wizard and he will develop some talent, too. Or he does none of the above and stays entirely mortal. All those options are not available to the changeling son.
Again, it boils down to power (or easy access to them) vs. choice. Perfectly reflected in the +2 for the pure mortal.

Fix did not change all that much, because I believe he was a -0 changeling. All he had was the aspect that bound him to his faery parent, nothing else. I am with Richard though, choosing mortality would eliminate all but the faintest resemblance to your fay heritage.

[sinker]

Hmm, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't much like your changeling. He seems to have no accountability and little realism.

Edit: I realized that the last bit was a little silly all things considered. Allow me to replace it with "I struggle to connect with how the concept functions for you."

[Richard_Chilton]

Hmm, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't much like your changeling. He seems to have no accountability and little realism.

The changeling son of Toot-Toot would probably have the same pressures on him as an average changeling.  The pressure to stop playing mortal and embrace his True Nature.  The fear that he will lose a large part of himself no matter which way he chooses.  The example didn't need the entire sheet so I only included the relevant parts.

Richard