An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[sinker]

Yeah, and that's what I'm talking about. You have two aspects that are functionally identical, ("Lucky" and "Distant Scion of the Fates") and the one that actually improves the game more gets penalized.

I'll leave it alone though. You addressed that point directly, so I feel satisfied in saying that we will have to agree to disagree.

[Richard_Chilton]

It seems I was wrong - at least in Fred's eyes.

I sent Fred an email, saying:

I know that you don't like being asked for "official rules calls", but this has more to do with the reason behind a small part of the game.  The why behind the Pure Mortal refresh bonus and how much it can be stretched.  With the ultimate rules authority (the table) unable to reach a consensus I thought I'd ask you about the reasoning behind its design.
1) Does the Pure Mortal refresh bonus represent a sort of "negative lawbreaker" bit? I.E. does someone with no supernatural powers have more freewill than a character with any supernatural elements?
1a) If not, is it just a game balance thing without any underlying philosophy?

2) Can a Pure Mortal have a High Concept that mentions supernatural ability?
EG 1: "Untrained Wizard with White Council Potential" - to be tagged when the character's innate powers might save him?
EG 2: "Distant Descendant of the Luck God" - to be tagged when luck is needed.

3) Could a Pure Mortal have a non-High Concept Aspect that references the supernatural?
EG: A Background Aspect: "Distant Descendant of the Luck God"

When he wrote back the individual points weren't addressed, but the gist of the question was.

We tried to build unity between the mechanical incentive (game balance, if you want to call it that) and the world philosophy, that pure mortals are potent because they have the benefit of so much free will. Mortals who get entangled in the affairs of the supernatural can turn into food, yes, but they can also screw it all up right proper (hello, Murphy).

It's also a representation that they have a lot of open potential in there, which locks down fast once they start heading a particular supernatural direction.

But, from a mechanical standpoint, the pure mortal bonus makes sense up until you start buying supernatural powers. Once you do, it goes away, full stop. Before then, you are, mechanically, a pure mortal without any supernatural powers, so I'd stick with keeping it.

Fred

So from a philosophical point, the "negative lawbreaker" thing fits.  Up until I got to the "But, from a mechanical standpoint,..." I thought the Aspect thing fit in as well.  Maybe it's a conflict between the design philosophy and resulting mechanics.

Then again, as Fred says, the table is the ultimate rules authority...

But hopefully this will bring this discussion to a close.

Richard

[sinker]

So his response was a resounding "Ehh...All of the above." 

Mind if I add that to our Word of Fred thread?

[Richard_Chilton]

Go for it.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Hopefully I'm not late to the party, but...

sinker and Tedronai are completely correct about this. The arguments presented against them are, by and large, REMOVED.

(For whatever it's worth, I didn't mean that as an insult.)

[Mr. Death]

Hopefully I'm not late to the party, but...

sinker and Tedronai are completely correct about this. The arguments presented against them are, by and large, laughably bad. Reading them caused me to lose some respect for the people making them.

A simple, "I agree with sinker and Tedronai" would have sufficed without being outright insulting. Particularly considering people on both sides have been able to see and understand where the others are coming from and agree respectfully to disagree.

[Sanctaphrax]

That would have implied that this is a matter of opinion. Which isn't really true.

[UmbraLux]

That would have implied that this is a matter of opinion. Which isn't really true.

Insofar as "bad" is a value judgement, it is a matter of opinion.

I really don't have much to say on the argument - said what little I thought relevant some time ago.  But insults are completely unneeded.

[Mickey Finn]

Hopefully I'm not late to the party, but...

 laughably bad. Reading them caused me to lose some respect for the people making them.

Reading this caused other things. Please go back and edit your remarks, and do not insult others on this board again. This is an official warning.

[Mr. Death]

That would have implied that this is a matter of opinion. Which isn't really true.

That, in itself, is a matter of opinion.

In the end, it was, in fact, down to opinion and personal preference: Whether the 'fledgeling magic user' would be better represented by taking a low-refresh, but potentially potent, power or invoking the aspect.

[Tedronai]

Yes, Mr. Death, as you've pointed out several times in this thread, everything comes down to opinion when you're free to change the fundamental question of a debate to suit the point you're trying to make.

[Mr. Death]

The fundamental question of the debate, I thought, was whether someone with supernatural affinity (like the ability to produce minor magic effects or directly influence luck) should have a supernatural power or should keep the Pure Mortal refresh bonus and just use an invoke of an aspect to activate it. I don't see how I have been changing that as you suggest.

[Tedronai]

The fundamental question as I have understood it for the majority of this thread is whether or not a supernatural aspect necessitates the loss of the Pure Mortal bonus, in its own right or by necessitating a power which then triggers the loss of the bonus.

[Sanctaphrax]

In a certain sense, everything is a matter of opinion. But I'm more certain about this than I am about the sun rising tomorrow.

I think that this comes down to a basic principle of this game's design. I'm gonna quote myself from an earlier thread to explain what I'm talking about:

-Generally speaking, powers in this game are clearly defined in mechanical terms. What they do inside the game world is left to the group's imagination.

[Richard_Chilton]

I could echo the "people who don’t have anything supernatural going on" bit - but why? Other than to say it gives grounds for debate, mentioning that will not change anyone's views.

Now for an exercise of willpower.  I'm going try to turn my back on this thread and not open it again.

Richard