An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Tedronai]

Claws provides a +2 bonus with no situational qualification

[Becq]

I think that both sides of this discussion are missing an interesting facet of the "Pure Mortal" refresh mechanic.

One aspect is balance: Pure Mortals get a +2 refresh boost to balance out the fact that they can't wield all sorts of kewl powerz.  One side holds this rule dear and absolute, the other side argues that magical abilities that aren't strictly an advantage shouldn't count, and therefore shouldn't disqualify the character from getting the bonus.

I'd like to propose an argument that is entirely different (at least I think it is, I didn't study every page of this discussion thoroughly):

First, recall that Refresh is basically DFRPGs reflection of Free Will.  That is, the lower your Refresh, the more frequently you must act in accordance with your nature (in the form of being compelled by aspects).  As you acquire powers, your refresh goes down, and you are able to exercise your Free Will to a decreasing degree.  In a sense, magic or supernatural abilities are a corrupting influence on your Free Will.

The ultimate example of this is, of course, the Lawbreaker Powers.  As a direct result of using magic in a "bad" way, you lose Refresh/Free Will.  By using magic in such a way as to break the Laws of Magic, you have corrupted your soul and reduced your future potential for exercising Free Will.  But long before that point, even learning to wield magic restricted your Free Will...

Taken in this light, the Pure Mortal bonus almost acts as a "positive" version of a Lawbreaker stunt.  A Pure Mortal is someone who has not made magic or the supernatural a part of who they are.  This is not to say that they can't come in contact with magic -- they can still have access to the temporary powers rules on YS92, for example.  They might be able to draw a magic circle now and then as Butters did, or drink a potion made by their wizard boyfriend.  The supernatural hasn't become part of who they are, so they are still Pure Mortal.

But once a character takes the red pill, so to speak, that extra layer of Free Will gets stripped away.  And it doesn't matter what form that takes; it could be that they have taken to carrying an Item of Power, for example, or started dreaming prophetic (but ultimately unheeded, and therefore arguably of limited value) dreams.

Bringing this back to the OP, I would say that a character that has 'inherent but minor' magical powers, even if they merely take the form of an abnormally flexible aspect, have made magic part of who they are, and therefore should have less Free Will than others.  This is distinct from characters who occasionally 'borrow' powers, because they haven't made that power part of who they are.  (Note that one important distinction is that a borrowed power depends on the source it is borrowed from, and can't be wielded completely at the character's own discretion.  And if it gets to the point that the borrowed power is available more than occasionally, then the character should probably be spending the refresh on the power.)

Just a thought I had.  As usual, YMMV.

[Richard_Chilton]

That is a good way of looking at it.

Richard

[Tedronai]

That would be a good way of looking at it if it did not ignore the explicit statement of the reasoning behind the bonus.

[Mr. Death]

It's a good way of looking at it regardless. The bonus, like every other power, stunt, and bit of math, is representative of--and not separate from--the thematic and narrative aspects of the game.

[sinker]

It still doesn't address the issue that you could have two characters that are functionally identical, but one gets penalized (loses the refresh bonus) because he has a deeper backstory.

[Tedronai]

The reasoning for the existence of the Pure Mortal bonus is explicitly stated.
This is fact.  It is not up for debate.
Attempting to posit new reasoning for its existence to support a conclusion denied by the existing, official, explicit statement, is fallacy.

[sinker]

I agree with you Tedronai, but it doesn't really move a discussion forward to say "I'm right and you're wrong, the end".

[Mr. Death]

Not necessarily a deeper backstory. Just a different one.

If you think the -0 refresh power that I've suggested (a free +2 on pretty much anything once a scene) isn't enough, what would you suggest? What power would make it worth it?

My philosophy is you should do your best to make sure the crunch matches up with the fluff--a supernatural character isn't a Pure Mortal, and thus shouldn't be under that template. If "Pure Mortal" is defined as "not having any supernatural powers," then "Not Pure Mortal" is by extension defined as "having some kind of supernatural power."

So, if the power I suggested before isn't enough incentive, what would balance it out and make this type of character still worthwhile?

The reasoning for the existence of the Pure Mortal bonus is explicitly stated.
This is fact.  It is not up for debate.
Attempting to posit new reasoning for its existence to support a conclusion denied by the existing, official, explicit statement, is fallacy.

Becq isn't wrong, though. Do a quick Ctrl+F search for "free will" in Your Story, and you'll see that nearly every time, it's equated with Refresh, and mentioned in tandem with supernatural abilities and nature reducing both refresh and free will. Free will = refresh = supernatural nature = supernatural powers. You can't just point to the crunch and ignore the fluff. They're meant to go together, like a s'more. Sure, you could just have the graham cracker and chocolate, but you need the marshmallow to make it really work.

[sinker]

Not necessarily a deeper backstory. Just a different one.

If you think the -0 refresh power that I've suggested (a free +2 on pretty much anything once a scene) isn't enough, what would you suggest? What power would make it worth it?

I'm simply talking about two characters who desire a "Lucky" aspect. Neither wants a power, because they want their refresh to go to specific stunts that benefit their specific area of expertise (this is better than your power because it provides a constant bonus). One chooses the aspect "Lucky" and the other chooses the aspect "Blessed by the goddess of fate" or "My great, great, great, great, etc, etc, grandmother Clotho." The second aspect is "hotter", creates a better story, and gives more to the GM and the game, and yet he would lose his refresh bonus. That's unequal and discourages better aspect/story.

[Richard_Chilton]

The reasoning for the existence of the Pure Mortal bonus is explicitly stated.
This is fact.  It is not up for debate.
Attempting to posit new reasoning for its existence to support a conclusion denied by the existing, official, explicit statement, is fallacy.

Pure mortals may not take any supernatural powers. In exchange for this restriction, pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting refresh. If this character ever takes a supernatural power, this refresh bonus goes away immediately (which may be mitigated by dropping one or two mortal stunts).

----

How does that contradict

the Pure Mortal bonus almost acts as a "positive" version of a Lawbreaker stunt.  A Pure Mortal is someone who has not made magic or the supernatural a part of who they are.  This is not to say that they can't come in contact with magic -- they can still have access to the temporary powers rules on YS92, for example.  They might be able to draw a magic circle now and then as Butters did, or drink a potion made by their wizard boyfriend.  The supernatural hasn't become part of who they are, so they are still Pure Mortal.

To me, one could easily be the long version of the other.  As in " ... pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting refresh to reflect the fact that none of their freewill has been subsumed by embracing elements of the supernatural" - that works just as well and does not seem to contradict any wording or the spirit of the rules.

Richard

[Becq]

I'm simply talking about two characters who desire a "Lucky" aspect. Neither wants a power, because they want their refresh to go to specific stunts that benefit their specific area of expertise (this is better than your power because it provides a constant bonus). One chooses the aspect "Lucky" and the other chooses the aspect "Blessed by the goddess of fate" or "My great, great, great, great, etc, etc, grandmother Clotho." The second aspect is "hotter", creates a better story, and gives more to the GM and the game, and yet he would lose his refresh bonus. That's unequal and discourages better aspect/story.

I wouldn't think that either character would lose the Pure Mortal on the basis of that aspect.  After all, it represents an outside influence, not an internal supernatural capability.  (Note that the player, not the character, is able to manipulate the aspect.)  If, on the other hand, you chose something like "Luckomancer" -- as in the ability for the character to use magic to manipulate luck, then the situation is different.

Oh, and one discussion of the linkage between Refresh and Free Will is on YS 146 (though there are several other mentions of this concept).

[Mr. Death]

Sorry, Sinker, I thought we were still on the 'untrained magical talent' subject.

Becq's approach is a good one. I guess my philosophy, though, is that if you're going to make that kind of aspect integral to the character, you could make it more prominent than just an aspect by taking a power that gives the usage a little more oomph, making the Luck something that the character has power over, in-story, rather than something the player has to spend a fate point for.

So I guess I'd allow it as an aspect if it was clear that Granny Clotho was the one pulling the strings to make the good luck happen, but if it's the character himself who's radiating good/bad luck vibes, then it would have to be a power.

Edit: Though all this talk about an otherwise-non-magical character who's blessed (and cursed) by Luck is making me want to stat up Rincewind. I'm sure he'd have interesting things to say on the subject (most of it profanity, admittedly).

[sinker]

Sorry, Sinker, I thought we were still on the 'untrained magical talent' subject.

People were getting hung up on the perceived differences between "Innate Pyromancer" and "Pyromaniac", so I figured I'd switch to something that has no perceived difference. Is it still acceptable if the aspect is "Distant Scion of the Fates"? It's a slight change, but has more of a focus on internal, rather than external influence.

[Mr. Death]

That aspect could go either way, I think. It depends on if his good luck comes from the Fates changing things for him (like how Lea's assistance to Harry would be an aspect, rather than a power), or if luck changes in response to him directly, or through him (like Guide My Hand's ability to let you stage a fortuitous arrival sans fate point spending).

If the character has no influence over luck and instead has luck influenced for him, then I'd say it could be an aspect. If the character is himself the source of the good luck, I'd insist it be a power, and work with the player to figure out a power that's balanced and worthwhile.