An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Tedronai]

'It' is an ability to use magic. That makes it a power.

This is your conclusion, but it is not an argument.

[Haru]

The important difference I see between an aspect and the suggestion of "magical" aspects is in fact the magic.

When Molly comes home and is about to be busted by Charity, there is mechanically no difference between invoking rebellious teenager or inherent magical talent for +2, I agree on that.

But there is a difference. While rebellious teenager would imply, that Molly knows how to move silently in her own home, knows how to stay hidden, which floorboards to avoid, and so on. There are no repercussions from this whatsoever.

Invoking inherent magical talent would allow you to hide in plain sight, veiling yourself with magic. And yes, like someone else said, I would allow this once. After that you either take a magical power (for example the [-0] one Death is proposing), or you drop your magic entirely. Since you would probably not give a character the aspect "inherent magical talent", without intending to use it one day, that is probably not an option that is going to get used very often. But intent to use magic should exclude you from the pure mortal benefit.

Most importantly, I see the [-0] power Death describes as far more than simply one free tag per scene. It is going to let you do impossible (or at least improbable) things as well. You could tag it on a survival roll to make fire without a lighter. Or like above, hiding without anything to hide behind. It is a rudimentary use of magic, not just the invoke of an aspect. Thinking about it, making it a [-1] power like Richard is proposing would make sense. In that case, I would probably do it like I described earlier, as a single spell power for 1 refresh.

It's like an artefact collector who is technically a pure mortal, but he uses magical items, and if the character concept is based on the use of magic in one way or another, he should no longer be considered a pure mortal. Even if the magic is just based on tagging an aspect.

You could mimic the cloak of shadows power with a stunt or two, and you would not lose your pure mortal status. Take cloak of shadows for the exact same mechanical benefit, and you are a supernatural character. I see the same reasoning applying here.

[Mr. Death]

This is your conclusion, but it is not an argument.

No, it's the original premise that the OP was asking about.

So I was thinking about a proto-wizard, completely untrained with no magical powers, and realized that just using aspects could make a pretty cool magical character. i.e.

Name: 12 year old Dresden
Template: Pure Mortal? (the +2 refresh is questionable)
High Concept: Council level magical talent, ZERO training
Skills: Lets just say everything at average +1 for sake of argument
Stunts/Powers: NONE
Refresh: 2 (4???) Hydrophobic

Now we have a character who for the low price of 1 fate point, can tag or invoke for affect his high concept for nearly anything. So he wants to win the middle school long jump, throw down a fate point, roll athletics +3. He wants to set the building on fire, throw down a fate point, invoke for effect. He wants another fate point, his power goes crazy and something bad happens.

If the bonus from lawbreaker stunts can stack with the +2 from tagging the high concept, we can build a frightening junior warlock like this too.

Name: Billy D. Warlock
High Concept: Talented Warlock with ZERO training
Aspect: Naturally manipulative and intimidating
Skills: good rapport and intimidation +3
Powers:  Lawbreaker Third (twice) -2
Refresh: 0 (Hydrophobic)

Say billy wants to make you do something. He self compels his high concept to use black magic, and banks a fate point. He makes a social attack with rapport or intimidation, spends his fate point to tag his high concept, and gets another +2 from Lawbreaker Third (is it Kosher to use mental magic for social attacks?).  This gives him a +7 social attack! Say he had another fate point saved up to use. He can tag his manipulative aspect and bring his social attack to +9! Throw down a black magic fueled social maneuver, and Billy can pretty easily pull of some +11 mindbending! That's enough to give a submerged warden nightmares.

He's asking about a character who can use magic. They may not be able to properly control it, but they still have magic.

Having magic means you're not a pure mortal. Not being a pure mortal means you have some kind of power.

The important difference I see between an aspect and the suggestion of "magical" aspects is in fact the magic.

And thank you, Haru. That's exactly what I've been saying.

[Richard_Chilton]

I was going to type a long reply, but instead I'll just agree with Haru.

Powers allow you to break reality are more  than aspects, they are powers.

This is how I see it working:
Minor Magic [-1]: You are either a budding apprentice, a late bloomer, or otherwise have a very minor talent for magic.  While not capable of true Evocation or Thaumaturgy, you are able to work the sort of magic described under Mundane Effects (YS pg 259).  With time, effort, and / or instruction, you may be able to upgrade to Channeling, Rituals, Evocation, or Thaumaturgy (spending the appropriate refresh).  If so whichever full spell casting power you take replaces this power.

Richard

[Mr. Death]

I think if you're charging a whole refresh for it, it should have a solid mechanical benefit. Like this:

Minor Magic [-1]: You are either a budding apprentice, a late bloomer, or otherwise have a very minor talent for magic.  While not capable of true Evocation or Thaumaturgy, you can tag your high concept for effect, a reroll, or a +2 to any one roll per scene justified by your wild, untrained, but potentially potent magical talent. You may also be subject to compels when your magical talent gets out of your control. With time, effort, and / or instruction, you may be able to upgrade to Channeling, Rituals, Evocation, or Thaumaturgy (spending the appropriate refresh).  If so whichever full spell casting power you take replaces this power.

[Tedronai]

No, it's the original premise that the OP was asking about.

If you think 'That makes it a power' is representative of the original premise of this thread, then I think we can safely call this debate pointless.

[Richard_Chilton]

If you think 'That makes it a power' is representative of the original premise of this thread, then I think we can safely call this debate pointless.

It was more or less pointless before I chimed in.  Now we are discussing the mechanics and cost of the power.

I feel the use of Mundane Effects is worth the -1 rather than using the power to justify tagging the high concept.  While the character might not be fully (or even partly) in control of the minor magics covered by Mundane Effects, the player is.  Lighting fires, doing minor winds, making a small light, or otherwise doing minor stuff is (in my eyes) useful.

Then again, perhaps having two versions for this power is best.  Not every budding talent would work the same way.  So, stealing the missing parts from yours, I propose:
Minor Magic [-1]: You are either a budding apprentice, a late bloomer, or otherwise have a very minor talent for magic.  While not capable of true Evocation or Thaumaturgy, you are able to work the sort of magic described under Mundane Effects (YS pg 259).  You may also be subject to compels when your magical talent gets out of your control.  With time, effort, and / or instruction, you may be able to upgrade to Channeling, Rituals, Evocation, or Thaumaturgy (spending the appropriate refresh).  If so whichever full spell casting power you take replaces this power.

Thoughts?

Richard

[sinker]

You could mimic the cloak of shadows power with a stunt or two, and you would not lose your pure mortal status. Take cloak of shadows for the exact same mechanical benefit, and you are a supernatural character. I see the same reasoning applying here.

You could not mimic cloak of shadows with stunts, as one of it's facets is a supernatural ability with no shift value. If you could though, it would be with two stunts which would cost two refresh, because powers are almost exactly twice as powerful as equivalent stunts. This is why pure mortals get extra refresh. Because it costs them twice as much to achieve a remotely similar effect.

[Mr. Death]

If you think 'That makes it a power' is representative of the original premise of this thread, then I think we can safely call this debate pointless.

The original premise of this thread was someone asking about someone who explicitly has magic. That's what I was pointing out.

Explicitly having magic means it's a magic power. The setting and the game's text are pretty clear on that: If you have anything supernatural about you, you're not Pure Mortal. The OP was, frankly, mistaken in thinking you could characterize someone as Pure Mortal without any powers if they have magic.

As it's illogical to lose the Pure Mortal bonus without having something on the sheet representing the supernatural power, now we're hashing out what a power might be that gives the equivalent of what the OP had in mind.

That said, Richard, I was trying to retain the OP's idea of having the magic provide a bonus to rolls; mundane effects aren't really useful in that sense--they're more along the lines of flavor, not much like what the OP was talking about. I believe somewhere in there it says if Harry wanted to use one of those mundane effect spells to some significant advantage, then he'd have to cast it as a real spell instead.

[Tedronai]

Explicitly having magic means it's a magic power.

Again, this is clearly not a matter of consensus.

[Richard_Chilton]

Again, this is clearly not a matter of consensus.

But, as you said, the debate is pointless.

We agree to disagree.

Richard

[Richard_Chilton]

That said, Richard, I was trying to retain the OP's idea of having the magic provide a bonus to rolls; mundane effects aren't really useful in that sense--they're more along the lines of flavor, not much like what the OP was talking about. I believe somewhere in there it says if Harry wanted to use one of those mundane effect spells to some significant advantage, then he'd have to cast it as a real spell instead.

Sorry - it's been a while since I saw that OP.

As for Mundane Magic...
"Any minor effect like this can be cast without a roll and will last for a scene for free. At most, a fate point might be required if the minor effect counters a scene aspect that might be inconvenient."

Richard

[Mr. Death]

Again, this is clearly not a matter of consensus.

So tell me. How can someone have magic power--not using common ritual, not using a magic item someone else made, but having magic power as part of their being, who and what they are as the OP suggested--and still be Pure Mortal?

The book's clear, as was said earlier. Pure Mortal is defined as people who "don’t have anything supernatural going on."

If a character's got some kind of magical nature to them, they're not Pure Mortal. If they're not Pure Mortal, it stands to reason that they have some kind of magic power to put on their sheet, even if it's a -0 refresh power that's going to be trouble as often as it's an asset.

So please, tell me where this doesn't hold up. Tell me where I'm wrong or where the point of debate is.

And Richard, I got the sense from the Mundane Effects thing that they were without cost or a roll because a caster would have no trouble with it because they know magic. That they're a trick that's only easy because the caster can do so much more. Harry can cast Flickum Bicus without any stress or a roll now, but as we see in flashback, the first time he cast it took considerable effort. What the OP was talking about was 'accidental' use of magic to direct advantage on rolls, which is more in line with a free tag of an aspect.

[Silverblaze]

So tell me. How can someone have magic power--not using common ritual, not using a magic item someone else made, but having magic power as part of their being, who and what they are as the OP suggested--and still be Pure Mortal?

The book's clear, as was said earlier. Pure Mortal is defined as people who "don’t have anything supernatural going on."

If a character's got some kind of magical nature to them, they're not Pure Mortal. If they're not Pure Mortal, it stands to reason that they have some kind of magic power to put on their sheet, even if it's a -0 refresh power that's going to be trouble as often as it's an asset.

So please, tell me where this doesn't hold up. Tell me where I'm wrong or where the point of debate is.

And Richard, I got the sense from the Mundane Effects thing that they were without cost or a roll because a caster would have no trouble with it because they know magic. That they're a trick that's only easy because the caster can do so much more. Harry can cast Flickum Bicus without any stress or a roll now, but as we see in flashback, the first time he cast it took considerable effort. What the OP was talking about was 'accidental' use of magic to direct advantage on rolls, which is more in line with a free tag of an aspect.

I'm having trouble figuring that out also.

Again, this is clearly not a matter of consensus.

First of all; there is no reason this shouldn't be a consensus.  However:

In an arguement there is clearly never a matter of consensus.  That is apperently never going to change.  Though some of us - for example me, have the decency to bow out when most people are clearly opposed to the idea in question.  Yet the people who seem to like this idea can't agree to disagree and keep hammering the same point home (and failing) just like those who hate the idea.  At that point it's best to just drop the topic, it became a cycle, using circular logic. 

I'll try one last time - afte that I'm goign to sincerely try not to reply.  Cowboy: Do what your table will allow, the forum is clearly split on the matter.  I personally wouldn't allow it, but whatever.

I can think of tons of ways to use aspects to circumvent buying powers: shouldn't be done.

Ex: Here are just a few.

Underdeveloped Third Eye (spend a fate point to use Sight)
Uncontrolled Were-Form (only gets furry and claws when angry)
Latent mutant ability: (spend a fate point for a creature feature? etc)

I think if you're charging a whole refresh for it, it should have a solid mechanical benefit. Like this:

Minor Magic [-1]: You are either a budding apprentice, a late bloomer, or otherwise have a very minor talent for magic.  While not capable of true Evocation or Thaumaturgy, you can tag your high concept for effect, a reroll, or a +2 to any one roll per scene justified by your wild, untrained, but potentially potent magical talent. You may also be subject to compels when your magical talent gets out of your control. With time, effort, and / or instruction, you may be able to upgrade to Channeling, Rituals, Evocation, or Thaumaturgy (spending the appropriate refresh).  If so whichever full spell casting power you take replaces this power.

This could work to simulate the idea in the OP.  You know, after you give up the +2 refresh for being human and actually buy a power....

[Tedronai]

Ex: Here are just a few.

Underdeveloped Third Eye (spend a fate point to use Sight)
Uncontrolled Were-Form (only gets furry and claws when angry)
Latent mutant ability: (spend a fate point for a creature feature? etc)

All of which are explicitly not what is being discussed in the OP, unless 'gets furry and claws' is just a fluff change with no mechanical backing beyond a +2 bonus to a single roll.


As I understand it, the vocal argument, here, goes something like this (sanitized for greater clarity):

Fluff Concept X demands that you not receive Crunch Y.
Crunch Y is denied only if you posses a Crunch from group Z.
Thus Fluff Concept X must possess a Crunch from group Z even though no such Crunch currently exists that supports the Concept, and the entire Concept can be mechanically represented using existing Crunch.
Since no such Crunch currently exists, we must design one and force it on Fluff Concept X.


My, and apparently others', objections to this stem from using Fluff to dictate Crunch (and then, for bonus points) to dictate Fluff.