An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Cowboy]

So I was thinking about a proto-wizard, completely untrained with no magical powers, and realized that just using aspects could make a pretty cool magical character. i.e.

Name: 12 year old Dresden
Template: Pure Mortal? (the +2 refresh is questionable)
High Concept: Council level magical talent, ZERO training
Skills: Lets just say everything at average +1 for sake of argument
Stunts/Powers: NONE
Refresh: 2 (4???) Hydrophobic

Now we have a character who for the low price of 1 fate point, can tag or invoke for affect his high concept for nearly anything. So he wants to win the middle school long jump, throw down a fate point, roll athletics +3. He wants to set the building on fire, throw down a fate point, invoke for effect. He wants another fate point, his power goes crazy and something bad happens.

If the bonus from lawbreaker stunts can stack with the +2 from tagging the high concept, we can build a frightening junior warlock like this too.

Name: Billy D. Warlock
High Concept: Talented Warlock with ZERO training
Aspect: Naturally manipulative and intimidating
Skills: good rapport and intimidation +3
Powers:  Lawbreaker Third (twice) -2
Refresh: 0 (Hydrophobic)

Say billy wants to make you do something. He self compels his high concept to use black magic, and banks a fate point. He makes a social attack with rapport or intimidation, spends his fate point to tag his high concept, and gets another +2 from Lawbreaker Third (is it Kosher to use mental magic for social attacks?).  This gives him a +7 social attack! Say he had another fate point saved up to use. He can tag his manipulative aspect and bring his social attack to +9! Throw down a black magic fueled social maneuver, and Billy can pretty easily pull of some +11 mindbending! That's enough to give a submerged warden nightmares.

[Mr. Death]

Any magical talent would manifest in one of the powers. Magical talent = powers. If you don't have the power, you can't use the magic. You can't just tag an aspect to give yourself a power for a scene. What you're talking about is, plain and simple, not how the game works at all.

Young Harry Dresden would probably have Channeling of some kind, with high Conviction and little to no Discipline. That gives him a lot of power to play with, but no control (training) over it.

[Cowboy]

Well, maybe it's a bad idea to use the system this way. Although I think there's a fair precedent for it. Tagging an aspect, should give a +2. The magic is just flavor. Not really different than a "good at math" aspect being tagged for +2 to scholarship.

I think there's a precedent for invoking a high concept for magical effect in the White Court ability to open portals to the nevernever. They don't have any power that would allow it otherwise.

Giving these guys a pure mortal bonus, or a law breaker Bonus is questionable though.

But, if it's a bad idea or tips the balance of the system then these guys probably shouldn't be allowed...

[Cowboy]

And the warlock is defiantly a munchkin of a character. I was just trying to hash out a concept.

[Mr. Death]

Yes, letting someone make any kind of magical attack with no refresh cost is definitely a bad idea.

If you want to use magic powers, you have to take magic powers. That's how the system works.

Aspects can compliment, augment, or restrict magic powers. They do not replace them.

The ability of White Court to open portals to the Nevernever is very restricted too--they can only do it in very specific places, for instance, and it's a narrowly useful power in the first place.

[Cowboy]

Although (and I'm just being argumentative for boredom sake now...lol) it isn't really making a magical attack. It's a regular social attack using intimidation that gets a +2 from tagging a relevant aspect. For example, I could make a pure mortal kid with the non-magical aspect "super talented, good at everything" that is mechanically identical to 12 Year Old Dresden.

I would say that invoking the aspect "untrained wizard" for effect is just as limited as a white court entering the nevernever. I wouldn't allow Harry to set a brick building on fire, but the books in the library...

[Mr. Death]

Although (and I'm just being argumentative for boredom sake now...lol) it isn't really making a magical attack. It's a regular social attack using intimidation that gets a +2 from tagging a relevant aspect. For example, I could make a pure mortal kid with the non-magical aspect "super talented, good at everything" that is mechanically identical to 12 Year Old Dresden.

I don't think any GM worth his salt would allow that as an aspect. For one, how do you compel it? You can't have an aspect that lets you get bonuses to everything all by itself.

I would say that invoking the aspect "untrained wizard" for effect is just as limited as a white court entering the nevernever. I wouldn't allow Harry to set a brick building on fire, but the books in the library...

To be perfectly blunt, you're wrong. You provided three examples where you would invoke that kind of aspect for very potent effect. White Court entering/exiting the Nevernever is more of a flavor effect, and only one effect that's not useful in combat, physical, mental, or social.

The bottom line is: If you want to use magical powers, you have to have magical powers. There's no way around that.

You seem to be thinking that "untrained" means "no access to powers." Untrained just means you don't know how to use it effectively. The ability to use Channeling is an inborn ability. The training is what lets you use it effectively.

[Cowboy]

To be perfectly blunt, you're wrong. .

Well, I've always taken pride in my ability to be wrong. I'm easily superb +5 in wrongness! LOL

[Cowboy]

And to take wrongness a step further...

Would invoking the aspect "Rampant Pyromanic" to declare that the building is on fire be so different mechanically? And is it really that powerful? It's an environmental aspect that any-one can tag.

And isn't limited world walking from high concept invoke pretty dang powerful? It's two refresh for anyone else...

[Haru]

I would probably start a character like that as a one trick pony with a watered down version of channelling. Basically for 1 refresh you get 1 specific spell you can do. That spell is cast by the normal evocation rules and is never a rote spell, no matter how high your lore. If you want to upgrade, you take an appropriate channelling, which replaces this one (it probably becomes a rote now).

You can, of course, take this as a mid session upgrade, so in your example

So he wants to win the middle school long jump, throw down a fate point, roll athletics +3

I would have him pay refresh and take a spell that lets him do a maneuver that he can tag to get +2 on his athletics roll. Since he doesn't know how to properly cast such a spell, he will probably have to take a lot of casting stress + backlash in order to make it work, which fits perfectly with Harry and Molly's description of the "2 hour long ice cream headache".

I would be weary of letting someone take this as a temporary power, because then they could simply pay a fate point for every spell they want to do, never committing the character to anything. If it fits your style, go for it, but on the procession of a character, I think it works best if the character is committed to one magical element when he starts out.

In any case, if a character is starting out a supernatural career, however small it is, he should lose his pure mortal status and therefore bonus.

[sinker]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with what you are describing Cowboy. This is exactly the way that one uses aspects, and you aren't describing any sort of effect that mundane aspects (like your "Rampant pyromaniac" example) can't cover.

I don't think any GM worth his salt would allow that as an aspect. For one, how do you compel it? You can't have an aspect that lets you get bonuses to everything all by itself.

I can think of several different ways to compel an aspect of "Super good at everything", can't you?

[Mr. Death]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with what you are describing Cowboy. This is exactly the way that one uses aspects, and you aren't describing any sort of effect that mundane aspects (like your "Rampant pyromaniac" example) can't cover.

He is describing someone regularly using magic without having a magic power.

I can think of several different ways to compel an aspect of "Super good at everything", can't you?

Only a couple, off the top of my head, but still an aspect that can be invoked for a +2 to everything doesn't sound kosher.

[Cowboy]

Also, using aspects instead of powers takes away the ability to throw magic at will, all day long. So for example, young Molly C. is surprised by her mother before she can change her clothes. She tags her magical talent aspect for a veil (calling it a veil  is just fluff) to get +2 to stealth allowing her to hide from Mom. As she just spent her only fate point, she is incapable of doing it again. If she had channeling:veils she would be able to make a veil whenever she felt like it (and also use channeling maneuvers to make veiled aspects to tag for +2 to stealth without a FP cost).

Is the headache necessarily mechanically significant? It seems like that could also be a minor mental consequence that gave its +2 to have even more effect. I.E. 12 year old Dresden, uses +1 athletics, +2 tag "magical talent" aspect, +2 minor consequence "migraine" giving him a superb +5 long jump. Olympic caliber.

[Cowboy]

He is describing someone regularly using magic without having a magic power.
Only a couple, off the top of my head, but still an aspect that can be invoked for a +2 to everything doesn't sound kosher.

Is there a RAW problem with "good at everything" beyond being super cheesy? I was just trying to say that regular aspects can be rather broad in their scope. And a "wild, uncontrolled magic talent" aspect would be very restrictive about how it could be applied.

[Mr. Death]

Also, using aspects instead of powers takes away the ability to throw magic at will, all day long. So for example, young Molly C. is surprised by her mother before she can change her clothes. She tags her magical talent aspect for a veil (calling it a veil  is just fluff) to get +2 to stealth allowing her to hide from Mom. As she just spent her only fate point, she is incapable of doing it again. If she had channeling:veils she would be able to make a veil whenever she felt like it (and also use channeling maneuvers to make veiled aspects to tag for +2 to stealth without a FP cost).

Or, she has a decent Conviction score, and abysmal Discipline, meaning whenever she casts any kind of veil she's going to take backlash in addition to the extra shifts she'd need in power to actually hide. Then you don't have to monkey with the Aspect system to make it do things it's not meant to do.

Aspects are supposed to match up with and modify a powerset. Not make a free replacement of them.

Is the headache necessarily mechanically significant? It seems like that could also be a minor mental consequence that gave its +2 to have even more effect. I.E. 12 year old Dresden, uses +1 athletics, +2 tag "magical talent" aspect, +2 minor consequence "migraine" giving him a superb +5 long jump. Olympic caliber.

If he's "magically talented," why not just give him a magic power? If it's part of his character that he has the ability to do magic--which is exactly what having an aspect like "magical talent" outright states--then he should have some magic power.

Being able to use magic--any magic at all--costs Refresh. You could certainly invoke aspects to boost a roll--but an aspect like "magical talent" should only boost rolls that are done with magic powers.

Is there a RAW problem with "good at everything" beyond being super cheesy? I was just trying to say that regular aspects can be rather broad in their scope.

I believe that something in the guidelines on making aspects goes over what makes a good and bad aspect. I don't have the books with me, but I'm pretty sure they discourage having an aspect that applies to literally everything.