Quick Question: How would you stat the Catch for Toughness on, say, a wererhino?

[Ghsdkgb]

The only real issue I have there is mechanically. If you already have a weapon of high rating, allowing THAT to satisfy the catch just makes you that much more of that one badass who overshadows the whole party. Everyone else is using their claws and daggers while you get to deal 4- or 5-stress hits left and right. And THEN this big tank comes along and everyone else is that much more ineffective against it, while you get to bypass its Catch and kill it that much harder, leaving everyone else in the party to wonder why they ever bother doing anything except throwing out a few maneuvers here and there.

I mean, it's one thing to be the star fighter in a party. It's quite another when you leave everyone else in the dust to the point where they don't even feel useful.

[UmbraLux]

The argument for massive damage Catches is simple. In order to properly simulate an elephant's resistance to pistol fire you need to give it something like 8-10 stress boxes and armour 1-2. But an anti-tank bazooka should kill an elephant in one hit, which doesn't work when an elephant has 8-10 stress boxes and armour 1-2. So you make the bazooka a Catch.

Hmmm, I disagree.   But, using argument, a flak jacket should also give you Toughness with a 'big weapon' catch. 

Ironically, modern military body armor is intended for use against shrapnel more than bullets. 

[Mr. Death]

Do you really feel that it is thematically appropriate for supernatural creatures to have a Catch based on massive damage?

Well, the Ghouls have it in their write-up among the Catches that massive damage (brain trauma, spine breaking) won't let them heal.

[sinker]

And now a brief interlude for some tangentially related silliness:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21888.msg966499.html#msg966499

But seriously I'm with Umbra. Something with a higher weapon rating will get past armor by virtue of being a higher weapon rating. A catch of "weapon rating higher than X" just means you're doubly vulnerable, which seems unnecessary to me.

[UmbraLux]

Well, the Ghouls have it in their write-up among the Catches that massive damage (brain trauma, spine breaking) won't let them heal.

I don't have the books available now but does that mention weapon rating at all?  I seem to remember it being closer to the popular view of zombies - major CNS disruption.

[Mr. Death]

No mention of weapon rating--it just says "dead is dead with a Ghoul" and that massive trauma is enough to kill them beyond what their healing abilities can recover.

[Sanctaphrax]

The flak jacket is a bad comparison. Because a flak jacket actually does protect against a direct hit from an anti-tank bazooka. it just doesn't do so well enough.

But a sufficiently energetic bullet is actually more damaging against something large than against something small.

PS: Keying this to weapon rating is probably a mistake, though I used to do it myself. See, a weapon 4 elephant gun ought to satisfy an elephant's Catch. But a weapon 6 evocation that consists of a storm of needles probably shouldn't.

[UmbraLux]

The flak jacket is a bad comparison. Because a flak jacket actually does protect against a direct hit from an anti-tank bazooka. it just doesn't do so well enough.

I agree it's a poor comparison...flak jackets give more protection than hide.  Even rhino hide.

But a sufficiently energetic bullet is actually more damaging against something large than against something small.

This isn't computing for me.  It sounds like you're saying the target takes more damage because it's larger. 

I suppose it might be true if only comparing the absolute size of a wound.  Don't think that's a good abstraction for relative health.  :-/

[Sanctaphrax]

It's not the hide, it's the sheer mass.

See, a knife might well puncture rhino hide. But a knife wound is a pinprick to something that big.

And yes, bigger things can take more damage than smaller ones sometimes. Like you say, bigger wound. But it also takes more to put down a bigger thing. Which is why I'm not suggesting elephants be more vulnerable to anti-tank weapons than I am. I'm just suggesting that they not be much less so.

The basic argument doesn't need that point though. To summarize what I'm really trying to say:

1. In order to model how hard it is to punch an elephant to death, elephants need Toughness.
2. If elephants have Toughness, then the large weapons that ought to kill elephants easily become unable to kill elephants easily.
3. Therefore, large weapons ignore the Toughness of elephants.

[CottbusFiles]

By the way, Kung-Fu-Were-Panda

[Becq]

I'm not a fan of the 'big attack' catches; they just don't feel right to me.  I'd probably go with something along the lines of "all were-creatures have a weakness to silver", though you could certainly customize this as deemed appropriate.  You could base weaknesses on World Of Darkness, if you prefer, which would mean that the catch would vary, including silver or gold depending on the were-type's patron.

[UmbraLux]

1. In order to model how hard it is to punch an elephant to death, elephants need Toughness.
2. If elephants have Toughness, then the large weapons that ought to kill elephants easily become unable to kill elephants easily.
3. Therefore, large weapons ignore the Toughness of elephants.

Re #1 - I'll agree Toughness is one possible solution.  It's certainly not the only one.
Re #2 - Disagree.  But weapon "size" doesn't really matter anyway.  It's not like you get hit by a 120mm round.  Fragments are what do the damage to personnel most often.  More to the point, Inhuman Toughness gives you armor 1 and two physical stress.  Not exactly enough to keep weapon 3+ damage from hurting them.  An elephant might survive a hit which a normal human wouldn't...but that's the point isn't it?

#3 is an invalid conclusion.

[computerking]

What I don't like about using "Weapon Level Catch" Toughness powers for normal creatures is the overflow factor.
Using that catch, you can hit a rhino all day with a Weapon:1 item with no result, due to the armor,
you can whittle him down with a Weapon:2 attack, eventually taking it out if it doesn't trample or Gore you first,
but the moment you bring out a Weapon:3 item (the minimum level of the Catch in this example) The Rhino folds like a cheap suit.

Those added stress boxes disappear as if Weapon: 3 turned them into so much ectoplasm. It doesn't seem right.

[sinker]

Yeah, I think even Sancta has disavowed the "Weapon value" catch, because it doesn't work thematically. I do like the idea that's left behind though (once you move past weapon values), that a weapon that would take a rhino out, will take a were-rhino out. It sounds completely ridiculous, but the catch is weapons that are the catch.

[Ghsdkgb]

So Catch: Firearms?