Denarians and Supernatural Hosts

[Ren]

So Question; is there any reason why a Denarian could not take a Supernatural Host? Say a White Court Vampire, Werewolf etc...?

[Tallyrand]

Cannon is I think quite on the subject, but I would say that part of a Denarian's purpose is to corrupt a mortal soul so that is the only type of person they would target.  Another possible interpretation would be that a Denarian requires it's host to make the free choice to be so, therefor cannon would allow for White Court vamps but not Red Court or Black.  I'm pretty sure in all cases werewolves would be fine since they would be mortal and hypothetically have free will.

[Sanctaphrax]

Pretty sure it just doesn't work that way. Because it doesn't.

I admit, not the most satisfying answer.

[Vargo Teras]

Agreed on the free will issue.  The notable thing about Denarians is that the host must willingly (if not freely) accept the Fallen into them, and can reject them at any time (if not easily).  A being which lacks free will lacks the capacity to accept the bargain.  So werewolf or White Court Virgin, certainly; full White Court Vampire, rarely if ever (any WCV who's successfully fought his own inner demon enough to retain free will would be highly unlikely to give any up to a Fallen angel).  Changelings pre-choice are probably fair game, but the fey proper shouldn't be.

[vultur]

I think an Alpha-style "classic" werewolf is totally legit as a host, since they definitely take wizards, sorcerers, & other practitioners, and a "classic" werewolf is still human-with-powers.

Actually, I think it's pretty broad. Harry certainly thought in SmF Thomas could be possessed - he warned him about touching the coin, "it could let you touch Justine again". Admittedly Thomas is very much an outlier among WCVs, but if he has enough free will it should be possible for Red Court Infected, Changelings, etc. who have at least as much. I think the Fallen gets a choice, though - it might well simply refuse to possess someone like Madeline(? - the really out-of-control Raith who gets burned and fed on by Lara). OTOH, it could probably do more even in that kind of host than stuck in the coin - especially since it'd probably be strong enough to overwhelm the White Court phage. Possibly a WCV/Denarian (or Red Court Infected/Denarian, etc.) would be functionally a Denarian, the other side suppressed, but if they ever rejected the coin it would be "un-suppressed".

And we do have a canonical case of "double possession", though not involving a Fallen - Madrigal, who already had a White Court demon/phage, is possessed by an Outsider in WN. So maybe the powers would 'combine'/merge/work together as they seem to have done in that case, creating a really terrifying Denarian.

Anything truly not human - fae, Red or Black Court Vampires, ghouls, etc. - is distinctly off limits though.


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The really interesting question is what happens if the Winter Knight touches a coin? I'd imagine Mab goes "MINE!" and burns the Fallen shadow right out of the Knight's head, but who knows?

[Magus Black]

It mostly due to the fact that the average mortal is weak mentally (low Discipline and Conviction) and the Denarians tend to pick on the weak more than the strong except when they think they can win. The thing the Nickelheads fear the most may be being subjugated by someone else and having their power being used without their influence.

Take Archive for example; in order to ’corrupt’ her they had to separate the human girl (Ivy) from the massive power (the Archive) in order for it to have a chance of success. If they just tossed her a coin unfettered and unrestricted by their power-seals at best she would simply crush the denarian trying to control her…at worst she would destroy not only coin but the denarian inside as well (and that would really ruin their day)…and it should be noted that many creatures of the Dresdenverse ‘claim’ to be indestructible and that attempting such things would be futile, but they ‘would’ say of course (the question is are you fool enough to believe it).

Considering that there are several coins that are unaccounted for by both Denarian parties and Knights of the Swords, its possible they did exactly what is suggested in the OP…and lost the fight. Until it comes around we can cannot know for certain whether its been tried or not (Mr. Butcher will probably get around to it).

[Ren]

Pretty much what I was thinking. There's a Denarian in the game I'm running who is currently hosted by a half-demon NPC.
And as I recall, sometimes Host is agreeable to the deal without being weak-minded, Nicodemus comes to mind.
At any rate, works for me...

[Becq]

It mostly due to the fact that the average mortal is weak mentally (low Discipline and Conviction) and the Denarians tend to pick on the weak more than the strong except when they think they can win.

I disagree.  There is discussion in the novels (and the RPG) about how monsters are bound to act in accordance with their nature, and that this limitation grows more significant with increasing power scale.  Archangels, for example, have enormous power, but have little or no free will, and can act only within the constraints they are bound by.  Denarians are similar.  Their purpose is to corrupt mortals, and I'd argue that they can only use their considerable power within a limited range of flexibility focused on that end.  They can't, for example, zot their intended victim and control their actions, but they can tempt their victim into bargains.

I would say that they can only be hosted by those who have free will (because otherwise they couldn't make the sorts of bargains that the Denarian needs to make) and who have souls (because that's the currency they seek).  Thomas would be a grey area here, much as he is a grey area in terms of the Laws of Magic, though I would think that the Alphas or the Archive would be targets (though the Archive's defenses would make her a rather difficult target, of course).

Note that Outsiders don't have the same purpose, and therefore have different constraints.