Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!

[Sanctaphrax]

Not all Catches can be bypassed by a specific material, and sometimes Declarations will fail. So this does need to be a power.

[Mr. Death]

Not all Catches can be bypassed by a specific material, and sometimes Declarations will fail. So this does need to be a power.

I'd suggest crafting for bullet 'potions' then, plus a Refinement to give you more room.

[Zorthrip]

I'd suggest crafting for bullet 'potions' then, plus a Refinement to give you more room.

Honestly, I think I'm more sold on this version that the Item of Power version.

[Sanctaphrax]

That wouldn't work. Not all Catches can be bypassed with potions. Furthermore, you won't always have an appropriate potion.

Not sure why people are so keen to avoid the current version of this item. Could someone explain?

[UmbraLux]

That wouldn't work. Not all Catches can be bypassed with potions. Furthermore, you won't always have an appropriate potion.

I agree with the first statement - some catches aren't based on physical items.  However, within their capabilities, you can always have an appropriate potion.  Just leave the potion slots open and declare them as needed.

[Sanctaphrax]

Declarations don't always work. You need to spend FP or you need to make a roll.

[Mr. Death]

That wouldn't work. Not all Catches can be bypassed with potions. Furthermore, you won't always have an appropriate potion.

Not sure why people are so keen to avoid the current version of this item. Could someone explain?

It doesn't have to be a literal potion, just a magic item that acts like one--like the 'sunshine in a hanky' example in the book.

Not all catches can be bypassed by potions, no, but I can think of a lot that can--make the potion/bullet using what the catch is as a component, for example. Up against Black Court? Work garlic into the bullet.

My objection with the 'fate point to counter any catch' version is, in the Swords of the Cross, there's a reasonable justification for when it does work (you've spent the fate point) vs. when it doesn't (no fate points to spend): Either the Knight is 'on the clock,' and God really wants that Dragon dead, or he's not. It's literally dependent on God being on your side.

With something like a private or governmental agency, what's the explanation for the gun working against any and all catches in one scene, and not working in the next? It makes more sense to me that the agent in question might have a set of pre-prepared bullets for various occasions than that he has a gun that usually works against everything but sometimes just doesn't.

And not always having the appropriate potion I'd say is a good thing. It adds drama to the scene, allows the PCs to be challenged, and creates more potential for quests instead of just allowing the PC to spend a fate point every time they get into a fight and render the enemy's toughness powers meaningless.

I mean, what's more fun and engaging? Having to put some effort and thought into bringing down a tough baddie or grouop of baddies, or just spending a fate point to say, "Nope, I just shoot the Loup Garou in the face."

[Zorthrip]

That wouldn't work. Not all Catches can be bypassed with potions. Furthermore, you won't always have an appropriate potion.

Not sure why people are so keen to avoid the current version of this item. Could someone explain?

I'm not saying that it would be potions carried around. Only that it would use similar mechanics to wizards using potions.

Once a specific Catch has been determined, one of the "potion" slots can be filled with a clip of bullets specifically crafted to mimic that Catch. These bullets are runic, or mystical in nature. That means that the magic of the bullet mimics the Catch, and is not limited to mimicking Catches that are bypassed by specific physical materials. Also, this version requires the Catch to be researched or discovered, since each clip must be crafted specifically. You may not always have the appropriate clip on hand if you get caught by surprise by something you didn't expect, but that is a chance you take.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Zorthrip: I know all that. Doesn't change anything.

@Mr. Death: Fate Points are made out of BS and handwavium. That's how they work. No point protesting it now if you've accepted it until now.

And making the bullets occasionally fail kinda defeats the purpose of the power. It satisfies all non-0-value Catches. That's what the player is spending his Refresh on. If you don't like it, buy a different power.

Oh, and even if you can satisfy its Catch a Loup-Garou is reasonably tough. It's not like the fight suddenly turns into a non-event because you have the Catch.

PS: Needing to put effort and thought into things isn't always fun and engaging. Sometimes it's just a pain. Suppose I wanted you to find the second derivatives of a multivariant function to work out the results of an attack roll. Wouldn't that be irritating? Whether it's good to need strategy depends on the situation.

[Mr. Death]

@Mr. Death: Fate Points are made out of BS and handwavium. That's how they work. No point protesting it now if you've accepted it until now.

I'm not protesting anything about how Fate Points work. My point was that the powers shouldn't be solely about mechanical benefit and mechanical cost--there should be a reason that a power works the way it does, and I don't see how a mortal agency could produce something that functions, in the fiction, because God literally said so.

If Fate Points are just "BS and handwavium," why do we even have to use them with aspects? Why not just make a fate point worth a straight +2 to any roll? They're tied into aspects for a reason--they're there to reinforce the narrative when the dice say that your acrobatic speedster trips over his own feet going down the stairs.

And making the bullets occasionally fail kinda defeats the purpose of the power. It satisfies all non-0-value Catches. That's what the player is spending his Refresh on. If you don't like it, buy a different power.

And yet having to spend a fate point is exactly what's going to make the bullets occasionally fail, because sometimes you won't have fate points to spend. It means there has to be some explanation for why the same bullets from the same gun that just put down a Loup Garou are now bouncing off a Red Court Vampire.

Again, a power should have some justification in the story for working the way it does, and not just boil down to cost of points for effect. That's the whole purpose of the templates, and requiring an aspect for some powers.

If this gun was empowered by a god, or a powerful fey, or some other entity that could reasonably be believed to just ignore the toughness powers of just about any supernatural creature, that would be one thing, but as far as I can tell that isn't the case here.

Oh, and even if you can satisfy its Catch a Loup-Garou is reasonably tough. It's not like the fight suddenly turns into a non-event because you have the Catch.

Perhaps not, but having the catch for damn near anything at your instant disposal without having to even find out what the catch might be takes the bite out of a lot of creatures in the series. It turns any fight into, "Just shoot it a bunch of times."

To borrow a phrase, if there was an unrestricted power that could bypass all catches with a power costing only 3 refresh and a fate point each use, why wouldn't everyone take it? It turns a Feet In The Water character into an opponent capable of taking on things that should be well, well out of his weight class.

The Sword of the Cross's ability doesn't just cost 3 refresh. You're typically not a Knight of the Cross unless you're also working from the Champion of God template, which has a -5 refresh cost before you even get the sword. And the sword comes with restrictions, responsibilities, and duties in and of itself.

Aspects and the narrative matter. It's not just about raw refresh cost vs. effect.

PS: Needing to put effort and thought into things isn't always fun and engaging. Sometimes it's just a pain. Suppose I wanted you to find the second derivatives of a multivariant function to work out the results of an attack roll. Wouldn't that be irritating? Whether it's good to need strategy depends on the situation.

Well, yes, if you pick the most extreme end of the 'fun/not fun' spectrum, then it's going to be a pain. Neither would it be a fair argument if I said, "Suppose I had the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue* giving you a massage while you researched the badguy's weaknesses. Wouldn't that be awesome?"

_{*Replace with Chippendale dancer, Playboy Bunny, body builder, or the stereotypical fetish object of your choice.}

[Zorthrip]

Honestly, these are all just possible alternatives. One of the many things I love about this system is its ability to mold itself into almost anything given enough creativity, and as we have seen here it can potentially do so in multiple ways. In the end it is up to the players and Storyteller to determine which version of these runic bullets best fits both their character, the intention behind purchasing them, the balance of the game being played, and the themes and moods that have been agreed upon by the ones running and playing in the game. In this, as in most cases, there is not true "right" or "wrong" answer.

[Mr. Death]

Well, yeah. Nothing's going to stop the OP from using any of the suggestions.

I'm just saying it doesn't feel right to me to take a power that, in the setting and fiction, is accessible to three people--tops--and is empowered by a major deity and the faith of millions of followers, which comes with a bunch of other recommended/requisite powers as well as a very specific role in the story and restrictions and responsibilities limiting its use, and boil it down to "-3 refresh, costs a fate point to use."

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, yes, if you pick the most extreme end of the 'fun/not fun' spectrum, then it's going to be a pain. Neither would it be a fair argument if I said, "Suppose I had the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue* giving you a massage while you researched the badguy's weaknesses. Wouldn't that be awesome?"

_{*Replace with Chippendale dancer, Playboy Bunny, body builder, or the stereotypical fetish object of your choice.}

I actually like finding partial derivatives. But I don't want any of that in my gaming.

And I really wouldn't want a massage while gaming either. Talk about awkward.

"Narrative" generally means the same as "handwavey". Whether an aspect applies or not depends on the direction the GM waves his hand in.

Anyway, your last post contains the answer I was looking for. So thanks. But supposing that the Runic Bullets are for whatever reason more special and more powerful than God and all his angels, would you still have a problem with them?

Because we can make them more special and more powerful than God and all his angels, with very little effort.

PS: Powers should be balanced by their costs, not by the templates that allow them. Otherwise you introduce mechanical landmines that make it dangerous to think outside the box.

[Mr. Death]

"Narrative" generally means the same as "handwavey". Whether an aspect applies or not depends on the direction the GM waves his hand in.

Yes, but it still has to make some sense--a bookworm without any real combat skills or aspects relating to fighting ability shouldn't be able to invoke something to make him kick the ass of a ghoul, for instance.

Anyway, your last post contains the answer I was looking for. So thanks. But supposing that the Runic Bullets are for whatever reason more special and more powerful than God and all his angels, would you still have a problem with them?

Basically, no, I wouldn't have a problem with them then. In my previous post I said if the runic bullets were empowered by a similarly powerful deity or Faerie, that would make sense--and it should come with similar duties and obligations to said Deity or Faerie in return for that power as well. But I was getting the sense that this was intended for a human/mortal organization, as a regular standard issue tool, rather than an artifact specifically empowered by such a being.

PS: Powers should be balanced by their costs, not by the templates that allow them. Otherwise you introduce mechanical landmines that make it dangerous to think outside the box.

But the powers should still have a narrative justification for how and why they work the way they do, and that goes for any power--even something as basic as Claws needs some kind of justification beyond "I want my fists to do Weapon:2 damage, and I have the refresh to spend," even if it's as mundane and basic as "I'm a kung fu master."

You could certainly have a Sword of the Cross without being in the Champion of God template (Spoiler for Changes)

(click to show/hide)

I'm reasonably sure Murphy and Susan didn't have all those other Faith powers when they took up the swords for instance.

But the sword comes with more baggage than just the refresh and fate point spending, even without the template associated with it, and that sort of thing should be considered when you're making similarly powered powers as much as the refresh cost does.

I just imagine this conversation between Michael Carpenter and such an agent, where Michael's going on about his sacred mission from God to defend the weak, how he's empowered by his own faith and purity, how he's one of a chosen very few who have been gifted with these abilities and the power to lay low any creature, and the agent responding, "Oh, I can do the same thing. Bob in R&D put it together a little while ago."

[Sanctaphrax]

Your first point indicates that you agree with me. Making sense is all about handwavium. As a general rule, anything which has to make sense is handwavey. Because no mechanical framework can possibly encompass the complexity of "what makes sense".

It's an ordinary piece of equipment, standard issue for all agents. And its more powerful than God, because humanity has surpassed the creator of the universe. Yay us!

Seriously, though, your objection has no real connection to the power. It just has to do with this item being an IoP. Which is fine, but not what I'm talking about at all.

Incidentally, your comment about baggage is exactly what I'm arguing against. Baggage comes in the form of compels, which are good. If a power is too strong and needs something to balance it, it should cost more. It shouldn't have some kind of narrative drawback. Because narrative drawbacks do not work in this game.

In fact, that's a large part of what I like about DFRPG.