Author Topic: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!  (Read 13009 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2012, 10:26:55 PM »
When the Knight finds himself unable to harm an innocent, that's a compel. And as such, it's not a bad thing.

If you treat it as a bad thing and use it as a balance element, then the balance of the power depends on the amount that the GM causes it to happen. Which means that a number of games, through no fault of the people in them, will be damaged when the wrong amount of narrative balance is applied.

It's the same problem you get with exceptionally situational powers, but worse.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2012, 11:46:53 PM »
When the Knight finds himself unable to harm an innocent, that's a compel. And as such, it's not a bad thing.
It's not just not being able to harm an innocent--the Sword also has to be swung with true purpose, not for personal reasons even if the target is anything but innocent (Harry trying to use it against Lea comes to mind). Bottom line is, there's things that you might want to use the sword against, but can't, because of the narrative effects. That is a concrete limiting factor on the sword's effectiveness, because it cannot be used in every fight. Removing that makes the sword that much more powerful.

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If you treat it as a bad thing and use it as a balance element, then the balance of the power depends on the amount that the GM causes it to happen. Which means that a number of games, through no fault of the people in them, will be damaged when the wrong amount of narrative balance is applied.

It's the same problem you get with exceptionally situational powers, but worse.
It's less about the GM causing it to happen, I'd argue, as it is the player making it happen. If the player's read the Sword's powerset (which he should if he's using it), then he'll limit himself accordingly in what he tries to use it against. If he hasn't, the GM certainly would have, and had darn well better enforce the consequences, because that, the consequences of a character's actions, are part of the game in whatever form they take--mechanical or narrative.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2012, 12:06:35 AM »

Do not read and ignore (do not respond) to avoid thread derailing.

Will happily have this particular debate elsewhere.

(click to show/hide)

Actually I harmed the innocent just fine.  I wasn't compelled not to, I broke the Sword much like Harry did.  Can't say that isn't a downside to the Sword.  things like this are reasons "All Creatures are Equal Before God" should be handled with extreme care.  Supposedly only three weapons in the universe do that.

Offline Zorthrip

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2012, 08:38:03 AM »
While mechanically speaking that gives the catches something in common, why would one bullet work the same on a Demon whose catch is Holy Stuff and on a Frost Giant whose catch is fire? Or on an Ogre with a catch of Iron in the same scene as a Black Court vampire?

There's really no commonality for all the catches this would affect that one single item would be able to latch onto through means regularly available to mortals.

As to why it effects multiple things, that would be the "runic magic" of the bullets. As to how they are commonly available to mortal agents, I would image that an agency with agents that are typically carrying around runic bullets wouldn't be staffed solely with Pure Mortals. I'm sure someone or multiple someones with some mojo are involved in some way.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2012, 02:23:30 PM »
Magic has to come from something. This isn't a setting where you can make something this broadly powerful and handwave it with "Well, it's magic."

It's a setting where something is either extremely powerful against a narrow number of things, or something is rather weak against a wide variety of things.

Technically, it could be done. But for each set of bullets, you'd have to work every catch into the ritual creation of the bullets. Not just put a rune on it, because if it were that simple, Harry or Gard would've done so. If mortal magic could make a, well, magic bullet that plowed through the defenses of dozens of different, disparate creatures whose weaknesses are completely unrelated, then the White Council probably would've figured it out and worked it into the Warden Swords.

So realistically, if this is being made by mortal spellcasters without a superpowerful sponsor, for each set of bullets, you'd need components for catches of every type of creature you'd want to affect. Granted, "holy stuff" does cover a bunch of them, but not all. You'd still need to work in a bunch of varied and obscure items to hit all the things this would, each of which makes it that much harder and more time consuming to make the bullets.

Knowledge is power in this setting--if you want to bypass a catch, you need to know what that catch is. This sort of item gives the power without the knowledge, which robs the toughness powers of their value.

The alternate way to do it would be to make it more like the Wardens' Swords. Instead of having it satisfy the catches, have the bullets just be extremely powerful when used against these creatures. I've got less problem buying that an organization can just cram a lot more regular boom into bullets than that they can just bypass catches that should take significant research and effort to determine and exploit normally.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Zorthrip

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2012, 06:58:13 PM »
Magic has to come from something. This isn't a setting where you can make something this broadly powerful and handwave it with "Well, it's magic."

Agreed, however outlining the specifics of that magic and why it is appropriate would be the purview of the person creating the organization, which is why I haven't deemed it appropriate to do so. The validity of the magic within the story and setting are based on whatever is created by that person. Here I am simply discussing mechanics and game balance. They could be made by anything, and if they want it to be some kind of sponsor or caster capable of making whatever, then that works.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 06:59:49 PM by Zorthrip »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2012, 07:26:01 PM »
Fair enough. I'm just saying that there should be a darn good in-story reason for why a power works the way it does in addition to the Refresh/fate point costs.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Zorthrip

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2012, 08:05:54 AM »
Fair enough. I'm just saying that there should be a darn good in-story reason for why a power works the way it does in addition to the Refresh/fate point costs.

Agreed

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2012, 08:14:34 PM »
Actually I harmed the innocent just fine.  I wasn't compelled not to, I broke the Sword much like Harry did.

Did you get a Fate Point? Because you earned one.

The problem with using something like Divine Purpose as a drawback is twofold. First, it makes the power not usable in some games. For instance, if I'm using DFRPG for a simple dungeon crawl then Divine Purpose will never matter. Which means I'm getting something for nothing.

(The great thing about the compel system is that it avoids that problem.)

Second, it means that anyone who adds flavour restrictions to their powers without being rewarded is a chump.

Also, you don't need to know a Catch to use it. IIRC, Harry discovered Nicodemus's Catch by using it. And if I use a steel sword or a holy warhammer I'll likely satisfy all sorts of Catches by accident.

And there's nothing in the setting or the game preventing you from just saying "it's magic". Seriously, nothing.

A large part of D&D messed-up-ness comes from the designers trying to limit powers with uncompensated narrative drawbacks. There are oodles of Prestige Classes out there which require a certain backstory, which supposedly prevents cherrypicking. In practice, it just messes up the character concepts of cherrypickers.

Plus, the classes are balanced against the assumption that you're going to fight multiple encounters every day. Which means that if you want to play a game where fights to the death are uncommon, the system fails on you.

Those problems must be avoided.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2012, 08:40:13 PM »
Also, you don't need to know a Catch to use it. IIRC, Harry discovered Nicodemus's Catch by using it. And if I use a steel sword or a holy warhammer I'll likely satisfy all sorts of Catches by accident.
As I recall, Harry half figured it out, half guessed, before he made the attempt, so he didn't just completely discover it out of the blue.

And yes, wielding one type of item might let you find a handful of catches out by accident. But this isn't about accidents and serendipity. This is about deliberately, purposefully building a weapon to satisfy even those +1 rebate catches (which means it's something both rare and very difficult to find out about), and if you're going to exploit a catch on purpose, it does pretty much require you to know what that catch is.

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And there's nothing in the setting or the game preventing you from just saying "it's magic". Seriously, nothing.
Explicitly, no. But this is a game system and setting where magic has rules--things it can and cannot do, and how.

I don't see any mention of a wizard being able to just magic up the weakness to something without figuring out and gathering its components--Harry needed to capture sunlight in a hanky to exploit it against the Red Court, he can't just make his magic 'Holy' outside of using Soulfire, and he needed the inherited silver in his amulet to harm the Loup-Garou.

So no, the books don't explicitly say you can't justify satisfying a bunch of catches all at once with "it's magic." What they do have is a set of rules for what satisfies what catches, and several examples in the fiction as well as the rulebooks where even strong wizards have to research, collect, and prepare specific catches for specific creatures using the components of those catches.

The rebate value of the catch is explicitly based on how difficult it is to find and use the associated weakness, remember. The Loup Garoux is a terrifying, nigh-unstoppable monster instead of just a somewhat-difficult fight because it paid those extra refresh to have its weakness be something rare. The Black Court were so powerful because their weaknesses weren't widely known, and the publishing of one book with those weaknesses basically broke them.

Knowledge is power, and the whole Toughness/Catch rebate system is based on how difficult it is to find and exploit that knowledge. Giving a power which just gives the power without some serious justification flies in the face of that. There's a reason that the only canon power to do that only exists in three objects in the whole world and is backed up by an extremely powerful sponsor.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2012, 07:14:22 PM »
#1 Did you get a Fate Point? Because you earned one.

The problem with using something like Divine Purpose as a drawback is twofold. First, it makes the power not usable in some games. For instance, if I'm using DFRPG for a simple dungeon crawl then Divine Purpose will never matter. Which means I'm getting something for nothing.

(The great thing about the compel system is that it avoids that problem.)

#2 Second, it means that anyone who adds flavour restrictions to their powers without being rewarded is a chump.

Also, you don't need to know a Catch to use it. IIRC, Harry discovered Nicodemus's Catch by using it. And if I use a steel sword or a holy warhammer I'll likely satisfy all sorts of Catches by accident.

And there's nothing in the setting or the game preventing you from just saying "it's magic". Seriously, nothing.

#3 A large part of D&D messed-up-ness comes from the designers trying to limit powers with uncompensated narrative drawbacks. There are oodles of Prestige Classes out there which require a certain backstory, which supposedly prevents cherrypicking. In practice, it just messes up the character concepts of cherrypickers.

Plus, the classes are balanced against the assumption that you're going to fight multiple encounters every day. Which means that if you want to play a game where fights to the death are uncommon, the system fails on you.

Those problems must be avoided.

#1 No, I did not.

#2 Then the group should either A) reward roleplaying and character concepts better or B) perhaps find a system better suited to dungeon crawls...this is the point I have the most trouble arguing.  I will say that my group can make narrative drawbacks work in D&D also.  You know...paladin's losing their powers if they commit the wrong acts, or monks...etc.

#3 I agree with all of your points about D&D. I truly do. I still fail to see how wanting narrative darwbacks matter in that game makes me support the poorly designed system. (or how I support a game which is all mechanics and no roleplaying.  In fact from my perspective your position better supports D&D 3.X...just saying)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2012, 07:54:26 AM »
1) Ouch.

2) This is the best dungeon-crawling system I know. I've heard good things about D&D 4, though, so maybe that's better.

Saying that groups should reward roleplaying better misses the point. Pure hack+slash is a valid way to play. The rules should not collapse if you choose to go that direction.

3) I'm not saying that you support D&D 3.5 at all. I'm saying that the opinion you're propounding here is responsible for some of that game's issues.

The paladin's code is a perfect example of how not to do a narrative drawback. It sometimes matters, sometimes doesn't, and spawns arguments endlessly.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2012, 04:13:16 PM »
1. I know right! :'(

  I'll likely point at your post and cry foul, hoping to get a juicy fate point.

2. Really?  You think DFRPG works well for dungeon crawls?  Not being rude, I honestly didn't think anyone would have that opinion is all.  It is a little shocking to me.

3. Well by the logic that my opinion supports the issues in 3.5 - narrative drawbacks - I think I can safely be blamed for supporting narrative drawbacks in most games.  I'll take that as a compliment.  I know I shouldn't but I like my opinion enough to feel that way. 

 I think many systems would benefit from a system or concrete drawback to accompany a narrative drawback; but some systems do not need it in every case.

In any case I think we derailed the crap out of this thread and I am just as guilty of it as anyone.

If I can be so bold as to take this full circle,  I think making the sword of the cross ability cost lessrefresh and carry no narrative drawback is a poor idea.  Runic Bullets one hte other hand seems to have no effect on mundane armor.  It also costs a fate point per use IIRC.  Under those rules I have only small amounts of issue with it.  Small enough to ignore for the sake of compromise/expediency.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Help Me Stat "Runic Bullets" Item of Power!
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2012, 04:28:01 AM »
2. Dungeon crawls just need a fun and diverse combat system. DFRPG has that. What's not to love?

I think that the narrative elements of DFRPG sometimes make people miss its crunchiness, btw.

3. I don't follow. Maybe I'm just sleep-deprived, but I don't know what you're trying to say.