Author Topic: DFRPG In Other Time P... *AHEM!* Yadda-Yadda, Something About Claws and Stuff.  (Read 37362 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2012, 09:34:35 PM »
This is factually incorrect, at least in this game. All aspects are equal, that's a basic property of the system's balance.
No, they're not. There's a reason that the book has a whole section on what makes a good/bad/weak/strong aspect. And a temporary aspect is not and should not be equal to a High Concept or a trouble.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2012, 07:21:55 AM »
They're all equally optimal. Some might be more interesting than others, but that's beside the point.

A High Concept and a Trouble and a temporary aspect from a maneuver are all equally powerful. This fact is important.

PS: Orladdin, I thought a bit more about your point about idealism and I realized I might be misinterpreting your position. Could you explain that point a bit further?

Offline Harboe

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2012, 08:55:11 AM »
While I'm sure the "Is Claws woefully underpowered AND comes with built-in drawbacks to boot" talk will surely come to a consensus soon, I was hoping the original topic could be addressed  ;)

I've just started a campaign set in the 12th century. We've started out in Frankfurt, Germany and I was wondering if anyone had any particular ideas for that?
Currently, we've established that the Black Court has a clear presence in the area, fae and spirits haunt the wilderness and we've decided that Hexenwulfen need to make some appearances... having a German name and all.  ::)

Ideas?

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2012, 11:50:04 AM »
While I'm sure the "Is Claws woefully underpowered AND comes with built-in drawbacks to boot" talk will surely come to a consensus soon, I was hoping the original topic could be addressed  ;)

I've just started a campaign set in the 12th century. We've started out in Frankfurt, Germany and I was wondering if anyone had any particular ideas for that?
Currently, we've established that the Black Court has a clear presence in the area, fae and spirits haunt the wilderness and we've decided that Hexenwulfen need to make some appearances... having a German name and all.  ::)

Ideas?

I know it's a long way from Hamlin, but a pied piping warlock would seem pretty sweet.  If you've read any Fables comics, I'd look there for inspiration.  A Frau Totenkinder like character (but, you know, not a nice person yet).

I'd say the White Council would be far less organized, have less oversight, etc. 

Offline Pbartender

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2012, 01:04:00 PM »
Retractable-ness has no mechanical value.

Sure it does.  The mechanical value is that it allows you to use the Deceit skill to hide a Weapon:2 weapon, when you ordinarily can't...  The mechanical value is that the character will still be armed (or more heavily armed) in situations where the other characters might not be.

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2012, 01:08:24 PM »
I've just started a campaign set in the 12th century. We've started out in Frankfurt, Germany and I was wondering if anyone had any particular ideas for that?

You might find this website useful...

Note that you can click on the different quadrants of the map to zoom in and get more detail.  If you sign up as a member of the site (it's free), you can download high-resolution copies of the maps.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 01:10:21 PM by Pbartender »

Offline Orladdin

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2012, 01:36:06 PM »
While I'm sure the "Is Claws woefully underpowered AND comes with built-in drawbacks to boot" talk will surely come to a consensus soon, I was hoping the original topic could be addressed  ;)
  Very sorry to derail your thread, but we slipped into the other topic slowly and I don't have authority to "split" it to its own without humungous effort (reposting everything).

I've just started a campaign set in the 12th century. We've started out in Frankfurt, Germany and I was wondering if anyone had any particular ideas for that?
Currently, we've established that the Black Court has a clear presence in the area, fae and spirits haunt the wilderness and we've decided that Hexenwulfen need to make some appearances... having a German name and all.  ::)

Ideas?

I checked Wikipedia's Info on the 12th Century.  There's some specifically German info there, but keep in mind, Europe is a much closer-knit community (even then) and neighboring regions can have a pretty big influence, too.  You can also pore over the History of Germany.

A couple points:  Germany has a lot of castles.  Setting adventures in castles constantly is not an impossible thing to do.  Castles are also really cool.  Ergo, you should set adventures in castles as often as possible.  ^_^
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Offline Orladdin

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #112 on: April 25, 2012, 02:58:47 PM »
My complaint is more like "I'm tired of seeing all these lousy structures built without walls because people can't accept that gravity and mass are different things. If you'd just accept the difference, we could have buildings that don't collapse!"
[EDIT:] Ah, after a re-read, I think I see the difference.  You're arguing that people are already making things illogically, and you'd rather they didn't.  My argument is that you are making things illogically and everyone else understands and subconsciously substitues the piece that you're missing.

...I've seen both approaches used, and mine works better.
  ... For you.  You find it easier to balance powers when you can look at only one side of the equation.

That would be pointlessly punitive. Why should you have to pay for retractable claws? Retractable-ness has no mechanical value.
  I've previously proven that retractable-ness does have a mechanical value in a separate post.  Retractable claws have the added ability to be concealed if desired while retaining the ability to be always-out.  They are simply better.  If you want to ignore this fact, feel free, but don't keep bringing it up.

... The powers I'm complaining about are not functional. Whereas the ones I write from my perspective are....
Though I did do something along those lines when I wrote up Natural Weaponry. Have you seen that power? It represents what I want Claws and Breath Weapon to look like.
  I haven't looked yet, but I will once I post this. 
What this quote tells me, though, is that rather than analyze what a power is and what it represents, you'd rather simply remake it your own way.  If you do this, you have to go ahead and remake every power presented in the book.  If you make a version of claws that is the same cost as the one in the book, and the one you make is retractable, no one will take the one in the book.  This should give you the hint that your new one is "better" or "more powerful".

This is factually incorrect, at least in this game. All aspects are equal, that's a basic property of the system's balance.
They're all equally optimal. Some might be more interesting than others, but that's beside the point.
  No they're not.  The entire chapter on aspects in the book says exactly the opposite.  They even rate columns of example aspects as "Boring," "Hot," and "Fuego!" from poorer to better aspects.  As an aspect, "Strong" is less good than "Ogre Thews" is less good than "Beefiest Thews in the Summer Court."  You have to stretch less to make it apply to more things.  How flavorful an aspect is, how many situations it can apply to and how much it adds to your character all affect the quality of an aspect.  If it can apply to more things, it can be used more-- both to compel and to invoke; making it better.


  But it should be something they care about.  There's a reason why an Abram's Tank, while far more powerful than an Uzi, is less useful in practice.  Narrative balance to mechanical strength does exist, even if it is inconvenient.  That's why game balance is such a hard thing to do

You can't drive around town in your Abrams.  People in the game world simply won't let you.
Given that tanks aren't parts of characters, they aren't really relevant to this discussion.
  Really?  This is your response to that example?  In a world where people can either buy a vanilla sword or enchant one as a character feature you can't accept an equipment example?  Ok, fine; so liken it to something that is part of the character then.  My point is that things don't exist in a vacuum where all you have to consider is their abilities or their functions.  There are outside (see: narrative) influences, too.  These are often nebulous and hard to take into account, but they exist.

These are what make game balance so hard.

PS: Orladdin, I thought a bit more about your point about idealism and I realized I might be misinterpreting your position. Could you explain that point a bit further?
  My point is that, in an ideal world, you would be able to divide narrative and mechanics: it would make balance easier.  But we don't live in an ideal world.  Narrative and mechanical properties do have an effect on each other. 

Look at D&D 4th edition as an example.  They (initially, before expansion bloat) went to great lengths to balance the combat system mechanically so that it could not be abused.  What was the result?  Powers that explicitly specified that you could only target characters or powers that behaved in really weird ways and didn't feel right ("What?  My ring of the ram can't be used on doors in this edition?  Why not?"  "Because the power says the target is 'One character'").  With the exception of a few, isolated bugs, you couldn't break the system.  That didn't mean it was a good system.  Many of the powers were boring.  Many were simply more powerful, higher level counterparts of the lower-level powers. 

Lots of people complained.

...There are games where narrative is used to balance mechanics, and they tend to be broken as a result.
  Is it as a result? Or is it a secondary and unrelated event?  Just because there are a lot of broken games that happen to balance narratively (like D&D 3rd ed. prestige class pre-reqs) that doesn't mean they are broken because of that.  It only means they are broken in addition to that. 
I would argue that 3rd ed. D&D isn't broken because of the prestige class pre-reqs being narrative, it's broken because they didn't balance those class features against other, similar class features.  It's a design problem that's entirely separate from the other design elements, which can each be evaluated based on their own merits.
Likewise with our discussion on claws.  Retractable claws are not broken by themselves.  They are broken compared to the non-retractable version.  Likewise ACAEBG isn't broken by itself, it's broken when you strip it down to 3-refresh and a FP to use.

You are asserting that a broken game ('G') logically follows from a narrative design ('N'), or:
N → G

I am asserting that there is no logical relation between narrative design and a broken game, and that your experience with broken games that have narrative design is simply a coincidence.  There are plenty of broken games without narrative design (G ^ ¬N).  More importantly, there are plenty of games with narrative design that are not broken (¬G ^ N).  This second one disproves your implication, thus:

For N to imply G, the following must evaluate to true:
N → G ⇔ ¬N v G   (Material Implication)

Given that (¬G ^ N) is true,
N is true,
G is false,

¬N is false
G is false

¬N v G is false,
Therefore, N -/-> G

A narrative game is not broken by its nature as a narrative game (though this does not preclude it from being broken in addition to it's nature as a narrative game).

...

Is that more clear?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 03:27:41 PM by Orladdin »
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Offline Orladdin

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #113 on: April 25, 2012, 03:23:42 PM »
Additionally, Sanc, I'm curious: Have you ever looked into GURPS?  To me, it seems like it would suit your style more than the DFRPG.  More granular cost structures, more guides for homebrewing content.

It's way to big a beast for me, but I know some guys who write for it.


Also, where was that Natural Weaponry power you mentioned?  I looked in the Wiki link in your sig and didn't see it.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 03:30:19 PM by Orladdin »
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Offline MAK

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2012, 04:54:49 AM »
  Very sorry to derail your thread, but we slipped into the other topic slowly and I don't have authority to "split" it to its own without humungous effort (reposting everything).

Well does someone have that authority? I'd like to be able to continue to follow this thread now that there finally is discussion on the topic again...  ;)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2012, 11:04:06 AM »
Sure it does.  The mechanical value is that it allows you to use the Deceit skill to hide a Weapon:2 weapon, when you ordinarily can't...  The mechanical value is that the character will still be armed (or more heavily armed) in situations where the other characters might not be.

Wrong.

If the non-retractable nature of your Claws causes a problem, that's a compel. So in any situation where you benefit from retracting your Claws, you would have been compensated for not having that ability.

(Oh, and you can definitely use Deceit to hide a weapon: 2 weapon. This is not even a question, it's certain.)

Additionally, Sanc, I'm curious: Have you ever looked into GURPS?  To me, it seems like it would suit your style more than the DFRPG.  More granular cost structures, more guides for homebrewing content.

It's way to big a beast for me, but I know some guys who write for it.


Also, where was that Natural Weaponry power you mentioned?  I looked in the Wiki link in your sig and didn't see it.

Looked into it briefly once. Wasn't impressed, but maybe I'll give it another go sometime.

And believe me, it would be very hard for any game to suit me better than DFRPG does. It's got a fun, balanced, and interesting system that can cover literally anything. You don't have to have any narrative in DFRPG if you don't want to, you can reduce it to pure mechanics. Which is not the case with, say, D&D.

(Aspects can do literally anything, and they are a mechanical construct. If you push the tag-declare-invoke thing far enough, you need never do anything else. Playing that way would be kind of painful, though, at least for me.)

Oh, and the wiki is in a shameful state right now. Look here.

While I'm sure the "Is Claws woefully underpowered AND comes with built-in drawbacks to boot" talk will surely come to a consensus soon, I was hoping the original topic could be addressed  ;)

I've just started a campaign set in the 12th century. We've started out in Frankfurt, Germany and I was wondering if anyone had any particular ideas for that?
Currently, we've established that the Black Court has a clear presence in the area, fae and spirits haunt the wilderness and we've decided that Hexenwulfen need to make some appearances... having a German name and all.  ::)

Ideas?

My apologies. Thought the original topic was over and done. Would you like us to ship out?

[EDIT:] Ah, after a re-read, I think I see the difference.  You're arguing that people are already making things illogically, and you'd rather they didn't.  My argument is that you are making things illogically and everyone else understands and subconsciously substitues the piece that you're missing.

That just ain't true.

See, the powers I write are pretty decent. Not perfect, but certainly usable. And I do my best to avoid dictating narrative to the people who use them. If you want to use my Telekinesis power to represent the assistance of a bunch of tiny minions, you can. Or you can use it for telekinesis. Whatever.

When people write with narrative mechanics, they generally produce crap. This is not just me, this is universal.

I've previously proven that retractable-ness does have a mechanical value in a separate post.  Retractable claws have the added ability to be concealed if desired while retaining the ability to be always-out.  They are simply better.  If you want to ignore this fact, feel free, but don't keep bringing it up.

You proved nothing, Orladdin. I tried to point this out already. When your Claws are retractable, you can't choose to receive the compels that a guy with non-retractable compels would have gotten. So you miss out on both the benefits and the drawbacks of obvious claws.

Also, it sounds like you're losing your temper. If something I do is pissing you off, I'm sorry.

What this quote tells me, though, is that rather than analyze what a power is and what it represents, you'd rather simply remake it your own way.  If you do this, you have to go ahead and remake every power presented in the book.  If you make a version of claws that is the same cost as the one in the book, and the one you make is retractable, no one will take the one in the book.  This should give you the hint that your new one is "better" or "more powerful".

That's libel!

Okay, not really. But I don't appreciate being told that I don't analyse powers. I do, and I do it a lot. More than pretty much anyone else, actually.

It's just that when my analysis finds a flaw, I fix that flaw.

Natural Weaponry can be retractable or non-retractable or whatever. Judging by people's willingness to take obvious Breath Weapons and refund-less inhuman features, people will still take non-retractable Natural Weaponry. And they'll not be made weaker by that decision.

The reason I keep harping about narrative-mechanical separation is my dislike for the problem you bring up. If you assign a mechanical value to a narrative decision, then everyone ought to make that decision. So you don't do that, ever, unless you're trying to force people in a certain direction for some reason.

You are creating this problem with your insistence that retractable weapons are better.

I know that you think that it's a fact, that you have no choice about it, but you're wrong. There's nothing in the rules that makes it so. It's your choice whether narrative has mechanical value, and you can choose between a correct answer and an incorrect one.

Not sure what would force me to rewrite every other power. Are you saying that they'd need to be improved to match Claws? Because believe me, Claws is in no danger of overpowering anything. And I didn't make it stronger, though I did buff Breath Weapon.

No they're not.  The entire chapter on aspects in the book says exactly the opposite.  They even rate columns of example aspects as "Boring," "Hot," and "Fuego!" from poorer to better aspects.  As an aspect, "Strong" is less good than "Ogre Thews" is less good than "Beefiest Thews in the Summer Court."  You have to stretch less to make it apply to more things.  How flavorful an aspect is, how many situations it can apply to and how much it adds to your character all affect the quality of an aspect.  If it can apply to more things, it can be used more-- both to compel and to invoke; making it better.

Good aspects =/= powerful aspects.

Suppose I gave a character the aspect OMNIPOTENT GOD. Would that make them more powerful?

No it wouldn't. Because aspects have no mechanical value.

Good thing too, or everyone would be an omnipotent god. And what an aspect can be applied to is entirely dependent on the GM's whims. It's not something you can measure or compare.

Generally, you want something that in your GM's opinion applies to most of what you'd want to use it for. Which can't be defined beyond a single moment at a single table.

Really?  This is your response to that example?  In a world where people can either buy a vanilla sword or enchant one as a character feature you can't accept an equipment example?  Ok, fine; so liken it to something that is part of the character then.  My point is that things don't exist in a vacuum where all you have to consider is their abilities or their functions.  There are outside (see: narrative) influences, too.  These are often nebulous and hard to take into account, but they exist.

These are what make game balance so hard.
  My point is that, in an ideal world, you would be able to divide narrative and mechanics: it would make balance easier.  But we don't live in an ideal world.  Narrative and mechanical properties do have an effect on each other. 

Look at D&D 4th edition as an example.  They (initially, before expansion bloat) went to great lengths to balance the combat system mechanically so that it could not be abused.  What was the result?  Powers that explicitly specified that you could only target characters or powers that behaved in really weird ways and didn't feel right ("What?  My ring of the ram can't be used on doors in this edition?  Why not?"  "Because the power says the target is 'One character'").  With the exception of a few, isolated bugs, you couldn't break the system.  That didn't mean it was a good system.  Many of the powers were boring.  Many were simply more powerful, higher level counterparts of the lower-level powers. 

Lots of people complained.
  Is it as a result? Or is it a secondary and unrelated event?  Just because there are a lot of broken games that happen to balance narratively (like D&D 3rd ed. prestige class pre-reqs) that doesn't mean they are broken because of that.  It only means they are broken in addition to that. 
I would argue that 3rd ed. D&D isn't broken because of the prestige class pre-reqs being narrative, it's broken because they didn't balance those class features against other, similar class features.  It's a design problem that's entirely separate from the other design elements, which can each be evaluated based on their own merits.
Likewise with our discussion on claws.  Retractable claws are not broken by themselves.  They are broken compared to the non-retractable version.  Likewise ACAEBG isn't broken by itself, it's broken when you strip it down to 3-refresh and a FP to use.

You are asserting that a broken game ('G') logically follows from a narrative design ('N'), or:
N → G

I am asserting that there is no logical relation between narrative design and a broken game, and that your experience with broken games that have narrative design is simply a coincidence.  There are plenty of broken games without narrative design (G ^ ¬N).  More importantly, there are plenty of games with narrative design that are not broken (¬G ^ N).  This second one disproves your implication, thus:

For N to imply G, the following must evaluate to true:
N → G ⇔ ¬N v G   (Material Implication)

Given that (¬G ^ N) is true,
N is true,
G is false,

¬N is false
G is false

¬N v G is false,
Therefore, N -/-> G

A narrative game is not broken by its nature as a narrative game (though this does not preclude it from being broken in addition to it's nature as a narrative game).

...

Is that more clear?

Ugh, formal logic. What a waste of time. You could have said the same thing in six words with much more clarity.

I've never seen narrative-mechanical-integration that wasn't either at least slightly unbalanced or pure GM fiat. Sometimes it wasn't bad enough to screw the game up though.

Not sure why you object to my response to the tank thing. A tank is a construct of narrative, a free thing, not a thing that can be balanced.

Never played 4th edition, but I've heard good things about it. Can't comment much.

If the Ring's fluff makes it sound like it works in a way that it doesn't work, that's just bad fluff-writing.

Now, it's hard for me to follow your argument, but I think it goes something like this:

"In game, all kinds of stuff happens. This stuff won't all be part of the game's mechanics, and some of it will be important. So non-mechanical stuff affects mechanics."

This is actually mostly true.

But it's not relevant to how you should write, because what people choose to do with the rules is up to them. All you can do when writing rules is make them work in a vacuum. You don't have air to work with, and if you get some it'll be different from all the other airs. So you have to write in a vacuum, whether you like it or not.

Rules do exist in a vacuum, even if they're taken out of that vacuum when they're used.

Fortunately, this rarely causes problems. Because while groups often break the rules or insert narrative into them, the effects tend to push in no particular direction. So they mostly cancel each other out. And you end up with something similar to what you had in a vacuum.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2012, 12:21:14 PM »
Oh, and because it might be relevant:

The biggest balance weakness in this game is probably just the fact that some games will have many uses available for any given ability and others will have few.

This is a case of narrative affecting mechanics.

This is a problem, albeit a manageable one.

Is this what you meant when you said that my position is idealistic?

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2012, 12:23:11 PM »
Wrong.

If the non-retractable nature of your Claws causes a problem, that's a compel. So in any situation where you benefit from retracting your Claws, you would have been compensated for not having that ability.
Or you lose a fate point because you don't want to be compelled. Compels are not always beneficial, and they are not always wanted, otherwise there would be no reason to buy out of them.

Quote
You proved nothing, Orladdin. I tried to point this out already. When your Claws are retractable, you can't choose to receive the compels that a guy with non-retractable compels would have gotten. So you miss out on both the benefits and the drawbacks of obvious claws.
With retractable claws, you get more choice--you can go into places and situations that someone with non-retractable claws simply can't. Getting compelled to jump through hoops every time you want to be in public isn't necessarily a fun experience.

Quote
I know that you think that it's a fact, that you have no choice about it, but you're wrong. There's nothing in the rules that makes it so. It's your choice whether narrative has mechanical value, and you can choose between a correct answer and an incorrect one.
I have to say, it is irritating and coming off as rather arrogant for you to keep simply declaring that we're wrong, that we're "incorrect" and that you are absolutely right. It's your opinion, one that I, Orladdin, and others disagree with.

Quote
Good aspects =/= powerful aspects.

Suppose I gave a character the aspect OMNIPOTENT GOD. Would that make them more powerful?

No it wouldn't. Because aspects have no mechanical value.

Good thing too, or everyone would be an omnipotent god. And what an aspect can be applied to is entirely dependent on the GM's whims. It's not something you can measure or compare.

Generally, you want something that in your GM's opinion applies to most of what you'd want to use it for. Which can't be defined beyond a single moment at a single table.
You can do a lot more, and justify a lot more, with Omnipotent God to invoke from, than you can from a lot of other aspects. Even if each invoke is relatively equal in strength, you have an aspect that can be used to justify literally anything.

The biggest balance weakness in this game is probably just the fact that some games will have many uses available for any given ability and others will have few.
I could say almost the exact same thing about Tetris.
Compels solve everything!

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Offline Pbartender

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2012, 12:50:53 PM »
(Oh, and you can definitely use Deceit to hide a weapon: 2 weapon. This is not even a question, it's certain.)

You must have a very different definition of "hiding small objects...  ...in plain sight" than I do. 

You can feasibly hide any object, but you can't really hide a sword or a baseball bat or an semi-automatic .45 in your jacket pocket without the bouncer finding it when he frisks you (or casually glances at you, for that matter). 

Sure, Harry and Michael routinely "hide" their staff and sword, respectively, by stuffing them into a big duffel bag, but they'd never get that past Marcone's bodyguards...  not even by accepting a compel.  It doesn't have to be a compel...  It's as simple as the bouncer saying, "Sorry, you can't come in here with weapons," or "Hey, I'll need to look inside that duffel bag."

In fact, it SHOULDN'T be a compel, because simply carrying a weapon doesn't give the character an aspect to compel, unless some other character takes the trouble to generate that aspect using an appropriate action.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 02:50:34 PM by Pbartender »

Offline Orladdin

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Re: DFRPG In Other Time Periods?
« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2012, 02:28:27 PM »
Ugh, formal logic. What a waste of time. You could have said the same thing in six words with much more clarity.
  While I generally agree, I thought our problem was in lack of belief that the outcome follows from the premise.  My natural tendency in those cases is to show that the outcome is inextricable from the premise.  I was going one step further than previous posts (where I used six words) because I thought you simply weren't getting the correlation I was making; when, in reality, you were considering a different discussion entirely.  My mistake there...

But it was a pretty good proof, eh?  I think I missed a step somewhere though...  I'll look back over it some time for fun.

I've never seen narrative-mechanical-integration that wasn't either at least slightly unbalanced or pure GM fiat. Sometimes it wasn't bad enough to screw the game up though.

Not sure why you object to my response to the tank thing. A tank is a construct of narrative, a free thing, not a thing that can be balanced.

Never played 4th edition, but I've heard good things about it. Can't comment much.

If the Ring's fluff makes it sound like it works in a way that it doesn't work, that's just bad fluff-writing.

Now, it's hard for me to follow your argument, but I think it goes something like this:

"In game, all kinds of stuff happens. This stuff won't all be part of the game's mechanics, and some of it will be important. So non-mechanical stuff affects mechanics."

This is actually mostly true.

But it's not relevant to how you should write, because what people choose to do with the rules is up to them. All you can do when writing rules is make them work in a vacuum. You don't have air to work with, and if you get some it'll be different from all the other airs. So you have to write in a vacuum, whether you like it or not.

Rules do exist in a vacuum, even if they're taken out of that vacuum when they're used.

Fortunately, this rarely causes problems. Because while groups often break the rules or insert narrative into them, the effects tend to push in no particular direction. So they mostly cancel each other out. And you end up with something similar to what you had in a vacuum.
  While you're right that you need to develop your rules in a vaccuum (as there's little other choice); there is a reason more and more developers are doing playtesting these days.  And that increase in play testing has be the primary force responsible for the improved games we've seen in the last decade or so.

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Also, it sounds like you're losing your temper. If something I do is pissing you off, I'm sorry.
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That's libel!

Okay, not really. But I don't appreciate being told that I don't analyse powers. I do, and I do it a lot. More than pretty much anyone else, actually...
    Yeah, sorry; I got a little touchy on that one.  Let me go back with a cooler head:

If the non-retractable nature of your Claws causes a problem, that's a compel. So in any situation where you benefit from retracting your Claws, you would have been compensated for not having that ability.
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You are creating this problem with your insistence that retractable weapons are better.
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You proved nothing, Orladdin. I tried to point this out already. When your Claws are retractable, you can't choose to receive the compels that a guy with non-retractable compels would have gotten. So you miss out on both the benefits and the drawbacks of obvious claws.
  Point A:  You're saying that the character's inability to hide their claws is balanced by the player's ability to be compelled. 

I (and others) pointed out that maybe you don't want to be compelled.  Being compelled doesn't simply mean "fate point factory," remember; you are being compensated for something ruining your day.  There are times when not having something ruin your day is preferrable.  Maybe it's something important to your character or maybe you're out of fate points to buy it off.  With retractables, you can choose when that happens. 

Point B: You're saying that having retractable claws causes you to miss out on this option.

With retractaclaws you can still get the fate points from claws-out compels if you want them.  If your claws are out and it complicates your adventure, you get fate points.  Just because you could have put them away doesn't mean you did or that someone didn't see them out first.  If your GM tries to say that you don't get a fate point when that guy who saw you teraing the guards limb from limb sounds the alarm, simply because you can hide your claws, reach across the table and smack him. 

Finally, the mechanical capability or your weapons concealability (something they can do) being balanced by your capability to be compelled (compels are a narrative mechanic) still seems like a narrative balance to me; just a different kind of one. 
And to me, it seems like the wrong kind of one; as it's entirely "costed" based on your GM's compel and narrative style rather than the power itself.

Natural Weaponry can be retractable or non-retractable or whatever. Judging by people's willingness to take obvious Breath Weapons and refund-less inhuman features, people will still take non-retractable Natural Weaponry. And they'll not be made weaker by that decision.

The reason I keep harping about narrative-mechanical separation is my dislike for the problem you bring up. If you assign a mechanical value to a narrative decision, then everyone ought to make that decision. So you don't do that, ever, unless you're trying to force people in a certain direction for some reason.
I could go the other direction with that argument, too:  If it's just as mechanically viable to have claws as to not have claws, and if having visible claws is simply a fate point factory, why isn't every single person in the game world walking around with claws?  There are reasons people aren't all walking around the world with claws. 

The answer is having visible claws is a negative thing much of the time and it isn't counterbalanced by compels.

Not sure what would force me to rewrite every other power. Are you saying that they'd need to be improved to match Claws? Because believe me, Claws is in no danger of overpowering anything. And I didn't make it stronger, though I did buff Breath Weapon.
  No, I'm saying if you're making custom powers that are more preferable than the other powers available, you should consider how it changes the balance with everything else in the system.  In this case, Natural Weaponry is simply preferrable to Claws as written.  That should imply a power increase.  Sure, it's not a numerical power increase, but options are power, too. 

Flexibility is power.  It's why people play rogues in many games, even though rogues don't have magic and don't have the hit points or armor of other characters.

Good aspects =/= powerful aspects.

Suppose I gave a character the aspect OMNIPOTENT GOD. Would that make them more powerful?

No it wouldn't. Because aspects have no mechanical value.

Good thing too, or everyone would be an omnipotent god. And what an aspect can be applied to is entirely dependent on the GM's whims. It's not something you can measure or compare.

Generally, you want something that in your GM's opinion applies to most of what you'd want to use it for. Which can't be defined beyond a single moment at a single table.
  Well, it could if your GM is a push-over and lets OMNIPOTENT GOD apply to everything.  You're right that it is highly table and GM dependant, but if you had a pushover GM and you were good at narration, OMNIPOTENT GOD could let you do anything.  And yes, it would be more powerful than any other aspect.  Sure it can only give rerolls/+2s... unless he invokes for effect...  and he could get fate points from literally anything that way to fund it.  That's not advisable play (unless the guy really does somehow make the game more fun for everyone via that aspect) but it is true.  Common sense prevents it, but it is still possible and true by the rules.



Well does someone have that authority? I'd like to be able to continue to follow this thread now that there finally is discussion on the topic again...  ;)

Administrators and Moderators can selectively split topics.  I think we've nearly concluded this secondary discussion, however, so it shouldn't be a huge deal. 

Sorry again.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 04:32:15 PM by Orladdin »
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