Faith Powers Waning Efficiency

[Silverblaze]

I very much like my character I curently play in a long running DFRPG game.

I have noticed however, that I seem to have refresh on my sheet that seems wasted to me now that I've been playing this character a long time.

Righteousness (-2) is a very good power at the beginning to middle part of many long running games (6-13 refresh range).  After that, the Desperate Hour power seems less efficient than most area spells players can use at that refresh level. It has no weapon rating (without custom stunts), it requires a semi specific set of circumstances to happen for the power to be usable and costs a fate point.  It is also only usable once a scene. (In case anyone wonders I keep Conviction as my top rated skill so it isn't a matter of having a low Conviction)

I also seem to have less and less use for Bless This House (-1).  Likely due to a lack of situations where it comes in handy.

I just notice (-3) refresh doing very little most of the time.  It doesn't bug me much, but I thought I'd try to get some advice or "comiserate" or something.

Does anyone else notice this in games where either refresh hits higher numbers or thresholds are simply less abundant?

[Sanctaphrax]

Bless This House is lame, but hearing that Righteousness feels weak surprises me. It gives +1 to basically everything. That's awesome!

And shouldn't Desperate Hour get better as Toughness becomes more prevalent? It requires no Fate Point and has a pretty decent shot at dropping low-Discipline foes.

[Silverblaze]

Bless This House is lame, but hearing that Righteousness feels weak surprises me. It gives +1 to basically everything. That's awesome!

And shouldn't Desperate Hour get better as Toughness becomes more prevalent? It requires no Fate Point and has a pretty decent shot at dropping low-Discipline foes.

I would think it should get better the more often toughness comes up.

+1 to everything is nice -  I was referring to Desperate Hour.

Maybe it's just me or our game, but most things I run into that (either hurt the group badly, kidnap a meaningful PC/NPC seem to have enough discipline that my character causes just a few stress of damage [2-3] {said foes also usually can take consequences, but rarely have to} unless I spend fate points on the attack). This attack is coming from a PC with 6 conviction.

Vampires often need a high discipline.  Denarians may very well need a high discipline.  The main things Knights fight have a fair chance at having a good discipline.

Pretty sure it does cost a fate point or I wasted a LOT of fate points.   

Also only usable once a scene.

Mildly frustrated I guess.  Since it sounds like it is supposed to turn tides in battle or kill off mooks or be generally more efficient.  I get the idea it's just me though.

[Sanctaphrax]

Huh, that's a surprise. I would expect it to be pretty handy. Especially against things like zombie T-Rexes and hordes of mooks.

Maybe the Discipline defence should be removed. Maybe make Righteousness cost -3 to compensate. Not sure if that's a good plan really, just tossing out ideas.

Why'd you call out my first phrase? Something you were going to say about that?

[Becq]

Doesn't Desperate Hour work out to be scaled favorably compared to, say, Incite Emotion+Lasting Emotion?  By this I mean that Incite+Lasting costs -2 refresh, and allows a single-target attack at weapon:2, whereas Desperate hour costs -2 refresh and allow a zone attack at weapon:0.  The two-shift difference is equivalent to the two-shift cost to make an attack spell a zone attack.  Incite is mental, and therefore ignores most supernatural defenses, whereas Desperate is physical/Holy and ignores all supernatural defenses.  Righteousness also grants Potent Prayer, which strikes me as more potent than the ability to lay maneuvers granted by Incite.

That said, if your group agrees that the effect is too weak, you might look into changing it to:

"Roll your Conviction as an attack maneuver against every non-allied, supernatural creature in the same zone as you, which can be resisted by their Discipline."

The maneuver would place an aspect like "God's Wrath" on the target, with the usual benefit in the form of tagging.  In terms of shifts, this would technically work out to be the same (about 2 shifts, depending on your ability to land the maneuver), though it would improve your ally's efforts against the creatures instead of simply marking off a stress box.

I'm a little concerned that this might prove too powerful (it's basically a form of multiple actions), but I think it fits the flavor of the power and might be worth testing.  If, on the other hand, it is still weak, then you could allow the option an invoke-for-effect option to the aspect allowing an attack made against the creature to be treated as Holy (instead of the +2, not in addition to).  This would be particularly powerful against creatures with high Toughness or Physical Immunity, and might well again be unbalancing.

[Silverblaze]

Huh, that's a surprise. I would expect it to be pretty handy. Especially against things like zombie T-Rexes and hordes of mooks.

Maybe the Discipline defence should be removed. Maybe make Righteousness cost -3 to compensate. Not sure if that's a good plan really, just tossing out ideas.

Why'd you call out my first phrase? Something you were going to say about that?

No just agreeing.

I don't really think there is a balanced fix to faith powers.  I'm just seeing what people's opinions on them are in general.

I could just be unlucky and when desperate hour is used, the foes left standing are plenty disciplined.

[Save_vs_DM]

After running a few games myself I kind of have to agree. Many of the Faith powers do seem to dwindle in utility the higher the refresh total becomes. They start out incredibly useful but as the refresh total climbs they begin to wane in power when compared to opponents and what a spellcaster can do. In short, the powers are awesome at Submerged and below but begin to wane in usefulness once you go beyond Submerged. This is just my opinion, mind you.

After also playing a Champion of God (sans Sword) and seeing a few in action, I've come to the following conclusions about the powers.

Bless This House
Honestly, this power has always seemed like a surcharge than something actually useful. It relies almost entirely on the GM to make it useful more than once in a blue moon. To get the most of this power you have to give the PCs plenty of places to retreat to that have a solid threshold. And lets be honest, most of the time that isn't the case. A good 70-80% of the time you're just not going to find this power useful.

The one change I made that really helped the power was letting it aid the value of an artificially constructed threshold. I even included simple circle barriers, providing them with a default Threshold of 2 (0 + 2). While this was never enough to actually ward off anything serious, it did provide a small measure of protection and made the power useful. It actually became very useful when the wizard started tossing up warding circles, which was nice because it helped teamwork.

That change probably makes Bless This House a bit too good, but I found it to be a better solution than having a lot of fights in churches, homes, and other places. And even then it never really saw that much use.

Guide My Hand
If you ask me, this is the real gem in the True Faith power suite. Being able to sub your (most likely) highest skill for any roll is incredibly potent. If anything this is probably worth 1 1/2 refresh. But it still has the same problem that any non-spellcaster has - it's limited to mundane efforts. Basically it lets the character act at the peak of human efficiency when he has time to prepare. But when you toss in Spiritual Guidance this really becomes a gem.

Holy Touch
This is another power that I kind of feel is only useful a bit of the time. If you're running up against a lot of things vulnerable to holy powers it's really useful for the compel option. But if you're not fighting a ton of unholy monsters it's less than useful. My other problem with the power is that it increases the power of Fists attacks but not anything else. That's great if you're a boxer but less than exciting if you swing a mundane sword or use a gun.

The one fix I added is that for an additional -1 refresh you can extend the effects of Holy Touch to any mundane weapon you happen to wield. But honestly that option is only good if you don't have an Item of Power to back you up.

Righteousness
Potent Prayer is incredibly potent if the player uses it early and has the fate points to spare. To me that's the real focus of this power, with Desperate Hour being a nice extra. Being able to compliment any skill with your (mostly likely) highest skill is very, very useful. To me it's almost worth the -2 refresh for this ability alone.

The real problem here is Desperate Hour. I think the intent is giving you a really potent "oh crap!" button to help swing the tide of a losing battle. This power should really only come into play when you're already losing. And if that's the case, you kind of want it to pack a wallop. The trouble is that if you're up against something that's forcing concessions or severe consequences then it very likely has a higher than average Discipline. Which means that your attack isn't going to pack a great deal of wallop.

The one change I made that seemed to work well is that you give the attack a weapon rating equal to the number of consequences you and your allies currently possess. This has the potential to be really, really potent. But let's face it - if you're in the situation where you're taking severe or extreme consequences you likely need the extra benefit.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts.

[Silverblaze]

Save_vs_DM: I pretty much have the exact same opinions of the powers.

Not sure if your fixes will be balanced, I've never tried them.  They certainly don't sound terribly overpowered.  I'll grant you to some extent I am biased by my current character...

I'll ask my GM to check this out and see if he likes any of the ideas presented.

Thanks.

[Belial666]

Use the following stunts or powers:

True Believer: you are truly dedicated to your faith - roll conviction at +1 for the purpose of using faith powers and your faith is considered "true".
Holy Aura: you are a focus of holy power; like a saint you can abjure the unholy. Your "Bless this House" ability confers its base threshold bonus to the zone you're in as long you are conscious, even if you are not in a building.
Incite Hope: You can bring hope through the power of belief. This works like normal Incite Emotion except that it uses Conviction instead of Deceit.
Judgement: Your faith is a sword of judgement against the unholy. Your Incite Hope ability can also be used as a weapon 2 attack against nonmortals.

[Sanctaphrax]

Personally, I'd probably just ditch Bless This House. It can be replaced with an aspect.

As for Desperate Hour, further thought has led me to the conclusion that some sort of power-up would be better than an attack. Did Michael ever release a holy laser burst when badly wounded? No. But he probably fought better when things were at their worst.

[Becq]

Here's an idea to toy with to replace Bless This House and Holy Touch with a re-skinned version of Incite Emotion.  At first glance it may appear to be more flexible (it can be used to benefit friends as well as penalize victims), but that flexibility is intended to be adjudicated narrowly based on Divine Purpose.  Thoughts?

Blessings of the Almighty [–1]
Description: God's power works through you, allowing you to bestow Blessings from the Almighty on others.  These Blessings can provide benefits in accordance with God's Divine Purpose (see the entry for Swords of the Cross on YS168).  Such a Blessing can also act as a Divine Curse against evil creatures or anyone commiting evil acts.
Options: This ability costs 1 refresh to start. More potent versions (see below) may be purchased by increasing the refresh cost.
Skills Affected: Conviction.
Effects:
Blessed Touch. You can impart a Blessing by touch. You’re able to do maneuvers at +2 to your Conviction roll that grant (or impose) the Blessing of God in the form of a temporary aspect, so long as you’re in the same zone as your target and you can physically touch him/it. The subject defends with Discipline if applicable. The effects of this Blessing can vary widely depending on the nature of those affected and the actions they take.  Although adjudication may be necessary in some situations, under no circumstances can the Blessing be used to aid evil or selfish acts, or to avoid the consequences of such actions.  You may be able to prevent the victim from taking such actions as well if you do this as a block (page 210) instead of as a maneuver.  Examples: A Blessing placed on a friend could be used to boost an defense roll against an attack by a mugger, but not against an attack by the random stranger the friend just punched in a bar for looking at him funny.
At Range [–1]. You may use this ability on targets up to one zone away without touching them.
Holy Touch [–1]. If you increase the refresh cost of this ability by 1, you gain the ability to do Blessed Touch as a physical attack instead of a mere maneuver or block. If such an attack hits, you gain a +2 stress bonus on a successful hit (as though it were Weapon:2), increasing the chances of inflicting a mental consequence (and thus, a more lasting Divine Curse). The victim defends with his Discipline.
Potent Holiness [–1]. The Holy Touch upgrade is a prerequisite to this one. You get another +2 stress bonus on successful attacks as per Holy Touch, as though you had Weapon:4.

[Sanctaphrax]

Few problems with that.

1. Stuff like Divine Purpose shouldn't be used to make powers less powerful.
2. This is actually significantly weaker than Incite Emotion, even without the Divine Purpose, because physical attacks < mental attacks.
3. Holy Touch mentions Divine Curses and mental consequences, though the power isn't capable of inflicting either.
4. Exactly how do attacks with this power work? Can they be used on normal folks?

[Becq]

My thoughts would be that:

1) Divine purpose wasn't making the power (defaulting as Incite Emotion) less powerful, it was combining with the increased flexibility of being able to do blessing and curses to 'even out'.
2) I guess I didn't specify, but the attack would be treated as 'Holy', which is considerably better than 'normal' physical.  But you could stick with mental instead, if you prefer.  In fact that might be more appropriate, since the touch of the divine on an unholy creature might well be desribed in terms of psychological trauma more than mere physical trauma.
3) Ah, cut'n'paste error ('mental consequence' was from the original Incite).  Should be physical, in which case the change in #2 seems best, in which case leave it as is.  As to the Divine Curse, I suppose it could be spelled out better.  The tope-level description makes note that the Blessing itself could count as a 'Divine Curse' when applied against appropriate enemies, and 'Holy Touch' makes use of this more hostile side of the power, thus the wording.
4) This is the tough part, and why the power would require significant adjudication.  The short/clear answer would be that it can be used in the sorts of situations that Holy Touch or a Sword of the Cross could be used.  The longer/vague answer is that it can be used in situations that Divine Purpose doesn't keep it from being used.  So for example, you couldn't walk into a bar and smack someone upside the face with this power (or use it to defend yourself in the ensuing barfight), but you could use it to defend yourself (or another innocent victim) against a mugger or subdue him (non-lethaly).

Given the limitations, the attack aspect of the power is weak compared to Incite in that it can't be used against just anyone for any reason, as Incite can.  But given that it's Holy, there is a strong edge in certain types of combats.  This benefit is edged out if the fdamage is mental, in which case the weapon rating should perhaps increase a bit.

But its at best a work in progress, so feel free to comment or critique.

This probably makes it weaker relative to Incite, which means that the scope should probably be expanded to include, for example, self-defense or the defense of (deserving) others in situations where those being defended do not deserve to be attacked