Dark influences on Harry

[Richard_Chilton]

Mercy killing?

I didn't say that it would be a mercy killing - only that Harry could have rationalise it as a mercy killing.  He didn't because he didn't have to.  Harry had spent years getting used to the self image of "Harry - a cold blooded killer when he has to be".  I'm not saying he's completely jaded, but the second one is always easier.  That's the stain spreading on his self image if not his soul.

A little OT:
Harry killing Cassius can't truly be considered a "cold blooded killing" in my opinion.
The simple fact that Cassius was a competent sorcerer means that even if he was on his way out in a month (or even the next few minutes) Cassius was an existential threat to Harry until Cassius was dead.  In my opinion, that makes it - however cold or not it might have been - self-defense.

In that case, Harry should have shot Morgan in the back during Summer Knight.  Morgan was a wizard and threat - he might not have been an active danger to Harry at the time but he was an existing threat to Harry.

And he should have arranged for a deadly accident for Marcone - who is also a threat.  And (by extension) Hendricks.  And he should have killed that White Court Vampire that was stalking him before Thomas revealed that he was Harry's brother.  And Fitz - Fitz should have died for shooting at Molly.

But Harry isn't a killer who neutralises threats like that.  He's deal with a danger while the danger exist and then tries to prevent the danger from coming back.  At least that's who he was before he killed a woman he loved to protect the daughter he never knew.   That's who he still was when he didn't have glans interfering with his thought process.  Will he be the same person in a few books time? Who knows?

Those dark influences keep adding up and he hasn't had the chance to interact with any light influences (Micheal, Maggie, etc) for a while.

Richard

[Serack]

I didn't say that it would be a mercy killing - only that Harry could have rationalise it as a mercy killing.  He didn't because he didn't have to.  Harry had spent years getting used to the self image of "Harry - a cold blooded killer when he has to be".  I'm not saying he's completely jaded, but the second one is always easier.  That's the stain spreading on his self image if not his soul.

In that case, Harry should have shot Morgan in the back during Summer Knight.  Morgan was a wizard and threat - he might not have been an active danger to Harry at the time but he was an existing threat to Harry.

And he should have arranged for a deadly accident for Marcone - who is also a threat.  And (by extension) Hendricks.  And he should have killed that White Court Vampire that was stalking him before Thomas revealed that he was Harry's brother.  And Fitz - Fitz should have died for shooting at Molly.

But Harry isn't a killer who neutralises threats like that.  He's deal with a danger while the danger exist and then tries to prevent the danger from coming back.  At least that's who he was before he killed a woman he loved to protect the daughter he never knew.   That's who he still was when he didn't have glans interfering with his thought process.  Will he be the same person in a few books time? Who knows?

Those dark influences keep adding up and he hasn't had the chance to interact with any light influences (Micheal, Maggie, etc) for a while.

Richard

However none of those threats had been told

"If I see you again - ever - I'll kill you."

Which was reiterated in DB

I rasped, "I told you."

He paused, eyebrows lifted, and rolled a hand.  "Pray continue."

"Told you,"  I said, and it was marred with a groan.  "Told you if I ever saw you again I would kill you."

[Richard_Chilton]

It's still killing someone when they're down.  Maybe Harry didn't realise how much doing that would bother him, but it does.

That's why he had to talk things out with Micheal in Proven Guilty.  More than anything else in that book, that conversation set the scene for Susan's death.

Richard

[Arjan]

Mercy killing? Look I like Harry but Harry only killed slate for power to rescue his daughter. Harry did not care about Slate's suffering. In PG Slate literally begs Harry to kill him ( Slate has his sanity at this point). Harry didn't want to kill him because he wanted Slate to suffer. I don't have my copy of PG but that was how the scene played out at Arctis Tor. He thinks to himself that he would like to see ways in which Slate's suffering is prolonged. I found the scene where he was hesistating killing slate in Changes weird. Now when Slate's mind is gone is when he kills Slate instead of giving Slate the mercy in PG.

Again I like Harry but I find his monologue in Changes about taking Lloyd Slates life hypocritical when in PG he was more than happy to let slate be tortured for as long as Mab wanted.

It would have been a mercy killing if Harry had killed him in Arctis Tor during Proven Guilty. But then he did not have mercy.

[Ziggelly]

In that case, Harry should have shot Morgan in the back during Summer Knight.  Morgan was a wizard and threat - he might not have been an active danger to Harry at the time but he was an existing threat to Harry.

And he should have arranged for a deadly accident for Marcone - who is also a threat.  And (by extension) Hendricks.  And he should have killed that White Court Vampire that was stalking him before Thomas revealed that he was Harry's brother.  And Fitz - Fitz should have died for shooting at Molly.

The others were vague, potential threats, with motivations that he could understand, and who could reasonably be dissuaded from hurting him or those around him. Cassius was a psycho on a vengeance kick, who had just cut his abdomen open with a hook knife and was very close to killing him.

[Piotr1600]

In that case, Harry should have shot Morgan in the back during Summer Knight.  Morgan was a wizard and threat - he might not have been an active danger to Harry at the time but he was an existing threat to Harry.

And he should have arranged for a deadly accident for Marcone - who is also a threat.  And (by extension) Hendricks.  And he should have killed that White Court Vampire that was stalking him before Thomas revealed that he was Harry's brother.  And Fitz - Fitz should have died for shooting at Molly.

But Harry isn't a killer who neutralises threats like that.  He's deal with a danger while the danger exist and then tries to prevent the danger from coming back.  At least that's who he was before he killed a woman he loved to protect the daughter he never knew.   That's who he still was when he didn't have glans interfering with his thought process.  Will he be the same person in a few books time? Who knows?

Those dark influences keep adding up and he hasn't had the chance to interact with any light influences (Micheal, Maggie, etc) for a while.

Richard

Neither Morgan nor Marcone are active threats of that magnitude.
Morgan is/was bound by the laws of wizardry. he was a dangerous opponent but he played by the rules.  Morgan is a big, mean dog inside a fence, wearing a collar and chained in a dog run.
Marcone is just not that much of a threat to Harry. He certainly wasn't seeking Harry out to destroy him at any point in the series. Marcone is a wolf in the woods.


Cassius on the other hand, was perfectly happy to use magic to try to kill. Cassius was not bound by the laws of magic, had obviously been planning on killing Harry for quite some time, and he would not be stopped short of his own death. Cassius is a big, mean hungry rabid dog that has gotten inside your house, and thinks you look yummy, and that you make interesting noises when you're in pain.

[Richard_Chilton]

Harry - the guy who was there - saw it as a cold blooded killing.

Because that is what it was.

At the time he did it, Harry was able to come up with a rational reason to do it.  Looking back, he views his reasoning as rationalisation.

As for it being justified - Marcone has been just as big as a threat since Storm Front.  Having soul gazed the man, Harry knows that Marcone could kill Harry and feel nothing.  Since sometime between Turn Coat and Changes, Harry has known that Marcone builds anti-Harry death traps.

But rather than kill the threat, Harry saves Marcone in Fool Moon.  Rather than react to the anti-Harry death trap, Harry arranges to meet the man on neutral territory.

If the show was on the other foot, if Marcone didn't know that Harry wasn't a cold blooded killer, then Marcone would have long ago killed Harry in self defense.  Using the same rationale that Harry used when he did his first murder.

Then again, maybe the dark influences are slowly turning Harry into a cold blood killer.  Mab will definitely help with the "cold" part.

Richard

[DragonEyes]

Cassius on the other hand, was perfectly happy to use magic to try to kill. Cassius was not bound by the laws of magic, had obviously been planning on killing Harry for quite some time, and he would not be stopped short of his own death. Cassius is a big, mean hungry rabid dog that has gotten inside your house, and thinks you look yummy, and that you make interesting noises when you're in pain.

Harry was now a Warden. He could have taken Cassius captive, bound him, and turned him over to Morgan, who would have succinctly beheaded him anyways. He had a choice on what to do, and he chose to kill Cassius personally rather than through the screwed up yet official channels of the Wardens. It was a death he chose, not one he needed to give.

[prince lotore]

Harry was now a Warden. He could have taken Cassius captive, bound him, and turned him over to Morgan, who would have succinctly beheaded him anyways. He had a choice on what to do, and he chose to kill Cassius personally rather than through the screwed up yet official channels of the Wardens. It was a death he chose, not one he needed to give.

As a warden harry doesnt need morgan to kill a warlock

[DragonEyes]

As a warden harry doesnt need morgan to kill a warlock

No, but he does apparently need a trial when there isn't an immediate danger, otherwise the trial at the beginning of PG makes no sense.

[prince lotore]

Considering how wardens have a cut the head off first and ask questions and harry was in the middle of trying to stop the dark hallow I think harry actually followed warden procedure on this one

[dimpwnc]

Considering how wardens have a cut the head off first and ask questions and harry was in the middle of trying to stop the dark hallow I think harry actually followed warden procedure on this one

In terms of whether Harry is darkened by the experience, I'm not sure how much it matters, in the end, whether he objectively had the right to do what he did.  He certainly believes that what he did was justified ("'If you had it to do again, would you?' 'Twice as hard.'") but that doesn't stop him from feeling haunted and stained by the "cold" killings.

[wyltok]

As for it being justified - Marcone has been just as big as a threat since Storm Front.  Having soul gazed the man, Harry knows that Marcone could kill Harry and feel nothing.  Since sometime between Turn Coat and Changes, Harry has known that Marcone builds anti-Harry death traps.

But rather than kill the threat, Harry saves Marcone in Fool Moon.  Rather than react to the anti-Harry death trap, Harry arranges to meet the man on neutral territory.

[...]

Richard

I'm not sure I follow this line of logic. You seem to be assuming that everything that's dangerous is also a threat, and should be dealt with using a pre-emptive strike. Marcone has made it patently clear that while he has the ability to kill Harry, he doesn't have the motivation to do so. The one time Harry thought Marcone was out to kill him, in fact, Harry loaded up with all his magic and went to confront the man directly (at the Varsity Club during Storm Front).

It's as simple as that. Harry knows that Marcone has no reason to kill Harry, ergo, Harry does not fear Marcone killing him. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that your objection to this logic is that if Marcone ever does have a reason to want to kill Harry, he'll just go ahead and try to kill and Harry without bothering to make sure Harry is aware that a reason no exists. To wait until a man whose morals are so contrary to Harry's own stumbles upon a reason to kill Harry does seem a bit foolish on Harry's part, no?

Thing is, Harry has lived all his life living under the risk of people stronger than him finding reason to want to kill him. Heck, his father-figure decided one day randomly to want to kill him and sent a demon after him (or so Harry thought for most of his adult life)! Add to that Lea (then Mab), Morgan (then the Merlin), Bianca (then the Red Court), etcetera... frankly, by this point, Harry has to be inmune to the idea that just because someone may someday decide he's worth killing means he should kill them now in a pre-emptive strike of some sort.

[Richard_Chilton]

I'm not sure I follow this line of logic.

That might be because I'm poking holes at someone elses "it was justified" theory.  If shooting Cassius was justified then killing Marcone is more than justified.  Personally, I see Harry having options with Cassius and deciding to kill him - to murder Cassius in cold blood.  At the time Harry sees the killing as the right thing to do, but later he has problems dealing with the fact that he killed in cold blood.

You seem to be assuming that everything that's dangerous is also a threat, and should be dealt with using a pre-emptive strike.

No, just pointing out that since day one in Storm Front, Marcone has been a bigger threat than Cassius was at the moment that Harry killed him.  If people feel that Harry killing Cassius was the right thing to do then Marcone should have died as well.

Instead, Harry repeatedly risked his life to save Marcone in Fool Moon.  When Harry got to the estate and saw the downed wolves Harry knew that Marcone now saw Harry as a threat and may have already sent out countless hitmen, but Harry still did what he had to in order to save Marcone.  The "smart thing" to do then would have been to try to kill Marcone and the FBI agents rather than to try to take people alive.  But Harry didn't do that then because Harry is not a cold blooded killer.

At least he wasn't until he murdered Cassius.

And that mundane murder has affected him as much (if not more) than the supernatural darkness that Harry has encountered (which is why it is on topic).  Because Harry knew that he had a choice and that he decided to kill a fellow human being.

And the fact that he would make that same choice again, that's why Harry is slowly getting used to the self image of "I am someone who kills in cold blood when I think I should" - which is a dark place to be.  Thing is, that if he hadn't had time to get used to that image, I doubt that he could have killed Susan.

Richard

[wyltok]

No, just pointing out that since day one in Storm Front, Marcone has been a bigger threat than Cassius was at the moment that Harry killed him.  If people feel that Harry killing Cassius was the right thing to do then Marcone should have died as well.

This is what I mean. Is Marcone more dangerous then Cassius? Certainly! Is he as big a threat? Nah. He has no motivation (yet) to kill Harry, and they both know it. Heck, he knows the guy's got the soul of a tiger. Tigers don't kill indiscriminately, and neither will Marcone.

Cassius, meanwhile, still has at least one year of life left, and has made it patently clear he'll dedicate it to chasing after Dresden. He's shown himself to be willing to go through Dresden's friends to do it, too (he tracked Harry through the use of Butter's hair). There is no question that he will hunt down Harry and his friends again. These are all things Harry knows Marcone will not do (for now). These are all reasons why I don't see how it's the smart thing for Harry to kill Marcone.

Instead, Harry repeatedly risked his life to save Marcone in Fool Moon.  When Harry got to the estate and saw the downed wolves Harry knew that Marcone now saw Harry as a threat and may have already sent out countless hitmen, but Harry still did what he had to in order to save Marcone.

Keep in mind, the very first thing Marcone says in that scene with the downed wolves is "I want Dresden alive". He then goes on to threaten Denton when he sets out to kill Harry after the Soul Gaze. Marcone also did the same thing when Harry was captured by the lycanthropes. This is the part that really confuses me in your argument: somehow you went from a Marcone that spent the whole novel telling other people "Don't kill Dresden" to Harry reaching the conclusion "Marcone wants me dead".