Author Topic: Questions  (Read 53848 times)

Offline Serack

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Re: Questions
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2012, 05:32:49 PM »
The difference between what you say and what Ms. Duck is saying is that you believe that Harry's stubbornness somehow makes some of Lasciel's Shadow's options no longer available by reason of being impossible, while she (and I) believe his stubbornnes makes some of her options no longer available by reason of being dumb/counterproductive instead.

(Apologies to Ms. Duck if I misunderstood her.)

be back later to address the bulk of your post, I have something else pressing on me.  However I wanted to be clear that by external hurdle, I ment from another entity, I.E. Mab.
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Offline AcornArmy

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Re: Questions
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2012, 05:43:41 PM »
The singing i refered too was the rolling stones. I think she was taking time to move in, was concerned about the possibility of getting evicted by a greater power (such as mab) and decided to lay low and be subtle. Lash had to be aware that mab was chasing him at this point.

The thing is... if you can transfer an entire copy of yourself into someone else's mind, you can surely speak to that mind, as well. And why bother with letting your copy talk when you, the larger, more truly powerful version of you, can speak for yourself instead? Prior to Harry placing the coin in the steel ring and burying it, there's no reason to assume one version of Lasciel over the other is doing the talking, except for the fact that one version is the true Lasciel and the other is just a shadow of her. Why let an inferior copy handle the conversation? While the coin was in Harry's possession, I think Lasciel herself was doing the talking.

Even if the steel circle didn't do anything to block Lasciel's contact with Lash, dropping the coin and burying it at least kept it away from Harry, which kept the full power of the Fallen in the coin away from Harry's mind. And I think Cozarkian could be right about the conscious act of sealing away the coin having the effect of preventing Lash from speaking to his conscious mind. Even if the magic of the circle itself didn't help, the act of burying the coin may have had the effect that Harry was hoping for, or most of it, anyway.

From the way things went in Dead Beat, it seemed that Lash was technically capable of communicating with Harry's conscious mind the whole time, but doing so would have broken some sort of rule. And I don't think that's a negligible thing; consider the fact that the entire story of Ghost Story only happened because a Fallen broke a rule and spoke seven words into Harry's mind. Because of that, Uriel was allowed to take his own swing at bat, which ended up not only getting Harry back into his body, but fortifying his will against Mab. To me, the seven words thing in GS made the idea of Lash not being allowed to speak to Harry much more believable and understandable, because clearly Someone up there in the Dresdenverse is keeping track of everything that comes out of a Fallen's mouth. You know, so to speak. And while the shadow may be much less powerful, they still hold some portion of the Fallen's power, and possibly all of its knowledge-- which is a huge portion of its power, all by itself.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Questions
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2012, 05:50:27 PM »
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.

As I see it, the weakness in your answer is that it seems common knowledge (the Knights, Nic) that nobody ever resists a shadow more than a few weeks before taking up a coin, yet Harry seems to have had no such issue/conflict between DM and DB (about one whole year).  If Lash was able to, you'd think she would have started building "Sheila's" persona a whole lot earlier - to use at the appropriate moment.
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Offline Serack

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Re: Questions
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2012, 06:24:55 PM »
Using and abusing memes amuses me. This one in particular comes from fanfiction websites.

I agree with you, by definition, Occam's Razor is never a strong argument. It's more of a gut check than anything, namely "Am I adding this complexity because it makes sense with the evidence available, or am I adding this complexity because it appeals to me in some way?"

Basically, I believe there's two questions; we agree on one, but disagree on the other:
1. Why did Lasciel's Shadow wait from the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference) until the actions of Dead Beat before "cheating"?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage (or as you put it, "[...]she chose to pull that card dispite the consequences of "crossing the line" because she saw that he was undergoing some stressful situations[...]").

2. Why did Lasciel's Shadow not "cheat" from the moment Harry empowered the circle until the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference)?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: empowering the circle somehow makes cheating impossible for her until Harry's actions in Blood Rites.

You gotta admit, it's a little out of left field. To use a word I used previously, it seems inconsistent (I know, there's no reason to believe Lasciel's Shadow would follow fair rules, but there you go).

If I have to admit that it's a little out of left field, then I'll also point out that it took years (2 years 8 months per the timeline) to get all the way there.  Which is kinda what knnn is saying in reply #77. 

To me, those two statements are completely contradictory...  My conceptualization of DV magic is the altering of reality with your will.  So in those terms Harry's empowering the circle was a willful alteration of Lasciel's ability to influence him.  Thus it was a sucessful magical spell, not an empty gesture that did absolutely nothing.

I have Doylist issues with this assertion, rather than Watsonian ones. You make it sound like the only reason Harry managed to cut the Shadow off from his conscious mind was because he'd been trained in the art of focusing his will to alter reality (A.K.A. magic). I want the aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he's a good man"; I don't want the fantastic aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he can do magic". I believe this is what Ms. Duck means by saying we are underestimating Harry.

(From a Watsonian perspective, we know one can renounce a coin without magic, since Sanya did it. So, I guess I have Watsonian issues with it, too.)

To Harry everything is a spell.  (The DFRPG and I think WoJ refer to this as, "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail")  Don't forget how the books pontificate on the amount of magic in a baby's laugh, and an entire stadium shouting "HAY!" after that silly tune.  In otherwords, you may be putting too much emphasis on Harry's training to interpret my claims about his isolating himself from the coin's influence with magic.  From certain perspectives there probably is something magical about Sanya throwing his coin into a canal.


For a little extra flavor, here is an excerpt from an article Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote after actually asking Jim about this subject in an interview shortly after WN was released.

Quote from: Jacqueline Lichtenberg
In the previous novels, Butcher has painted Dresden into a really dark corner with his increasingly facile use of the demon’s power. Meanwhile, point by point, Butcher has unfolded the laws of magic in his universe. That led me to expect a very Qabalistic resolution of the Demon haunting problem, but that wasn’t Butcher’s plan.

White Night ends with a resolution of the problem of the Demon shadowing Dresden. I pointed out to him during this interview that the ending of White Night really wasn’t a fulfillment of the Worldbuilding he had done. And I asked what principle of magic he used to solve the problem.

He answered not by referring to the principles of magic built into his world, but by referring to a writing principle. He went to the basic-traits list of the character sketch for Harry Dresden.

One precious gift that has emerged as central is Harry’s gift for empowering others. He lives a daily struggle to master control of his own Power – and though he hasn’t succeeded, he has become strong, and a catalyst of strength.

In fact, the Dresden Files series is about Power, its danger, use and abuse.

Butcher explains that Lashiel’s Shadow has the potential for Darkness but Harry is used to handling Dark Power. By refusing to give in to Lashiel’s attempt to seduce him with Power, and change him, Dresden reversed the force back upon her and she changed instead.
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Questions
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2012, 07:55:12 PM »
I think that quote supports my side more- that the circle has nothing to do with it; harry is just that cool. And where is this few weeks coming from? The quote i rember is that lash is impressed by three years...meaning other folks could certainly last a year or two. As to why the shadow, it probably is part of the rules. I doubt a mortal mind can withstand direct contact, thus abrogating the freedom of choice.
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Offline AcornArmy

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Re: Questions
« Reply #80 on: March 15, 2012, 08:10:04 PM »
As to why the shadow, it probably is part of the rules. I doubt a mortal mind can withstand direct contact, thus abrogating the freedom of choice.

A mortal mind definitely can't hold up under the psychic pressure of continuous, direct contact with one of the Fallen, which is the whole point behind Harry burying the coin and refusing to take it up. Harry knew he would never be able to hold off the real Lasciel.

Just so I'm clear, you're suggesting that Lasciel was always in contact with Lash, even after he buried the coin, right? That Lasciel never spoke to Harry directly, and in fact cannot speak directly to a mortal, but has to use the shadow as a mouthpiece?
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Offline wyltok

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Re: Questions
« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2012, 08:11:56 PM »
As I see it, the weakness in your answer is that it seems common knowledge (the Knights, Nic) that nobody ever resists a shadow more than a few weeks before taking up a coin, yet Harry seems to have had no such issue/conflict between DM and DB (about one whole year).  If Lash was able to, you'd think she would have started building "Sheila's" persona a whole lot earlier - to use at the appropriate moment.

Look at the type of people the Denarians usually go for:

Quote from: Small Favor
"Tessa chooses their hosts from among the downtrodden, the desperate, those who believe that they have nothing to lose. Those who will succumb to temptation the most rapidly."
 I grunted. “Lot of those around in the wake of a big nasty plague. Or any kind of similar chaos.”
 “Yes. We believe that it is one reason she collaborates with Nicodemus from time to time.”
 “She’s focused on short-term,” I said, getting it. “He’s all about the long view.”
 “Exactly,” Michael said. “When he threw Lasciel’s coin at my son, it was a calculated gesture.”
 “Calculated to rope me in,” I said.
 “You,” Michael said, “or my son.”

That's bound to skew the average considerably. Look at Nicodemus' reaction in the same book:

Quote from: Small Favor
“Oh, I picked the right coin for you.” He started to walk in a slow circle around me, the way you might a car at the dealership. “There are rumors that a certain Warden has been flinging Hellfire at his foes. How do you like it?”
 “I’d like it better if it came in Pine Fresh and New Car instead of only Rotting Egg,” I said.
 Nicodemus completed his circuit of me and arched an eyebrow. “You haven’t taken up the coin.”
 “I would, but it’s in my piggybank,” I said, “and I can’t break the piggy, obviously. He’s too cute.”
 “Lasciel’s shadow must be slipping,” Nicodemus said, shaking his head. “It has had years to reason with you, and still you refuse our gifts.”
 “What with the curly little tail and the big, sad brown eyes,” I said, as if he hadn’t said anything.
 One of his heels hit the ground with unnecessary force, and he stopped walking. He inhaled through his nose and out again. “Definitely the proper coin for you.”

On the one hand, he acts somewhat surprised that Lasciel's shadow hasn't managed to tempt him yet. But it's an "huh, that's odd" level of surprise not a "that's impossible" level of surprise (such as he'll show just a little later in the book). We know/believe Nicodemus thinks long term. He naturally expects that even if Harry picks up the coin, he won't instantly grow a goatee, but rather try to keep it hidden from his allies as long as possible. He never bothered looking for Harry again after giving him the coin, so clearly, his plans did not require/expect Harry taking up Lasciel right this instant.

I suspect Lasciel's Shadow was smart enough to realize she had no real hurry to corrupt Harry, and knew that if she wasn't subtle enough about it, Michael and Co. would do everything in their power to oppose her. Discretion was the better part of valor, that's all. Heck, we know/believe Lasciel and Anduriel don't get along. From Nicodemus' reaction above I would hazard the thought Nick thought Lasciel was taking her time just to be contrary (just like Harry is).

To Harry everything is a spell.  (The DFRPG and I think WoJ refer to this as, "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail")  Don't forget how the books pontificate on the amount of magic in a baby's laugh, and an entire stadium shouting "HAY!" after that silly tune.  In otherwords, you may be putting too much emphasis on Harry's training to interpret my claims about his isolating himself from the coin's influence with magic.  From certain perspectives there probably is something magical about Sanya throwing his coin into a canal.

Hm, let's use another example that's also from the books: what Harry calls "Old World Rules". Let's pick one specific one: keeping your promises. We know that Fae have to keep their word. We know that a wizard who makes a promise upon his power has to keep his word, or his own magic will attack him. Someone like Lara Raith, on the other hand, is free to go against her word. However, she never does, and whenever Harry suggests to her that she could, she looks at him as though he suddenly started talking an alien language. She's not constrained from breaking her word by any power or magic like the Fae are, but her own upbringing / self-interest make the idea basically impossible.

I want to believe the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where Sanya bears the Sword of Hope because he's the kind of guy that laughs when Rosanna tries to tempt him once again. I don't like thinking that the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where the Sword of Hope needs to protect Sanya from Rosanna's new temptation (I'm willing to accept a world that's a little of both, of course; shades of gray ftw).

A world where Lasciel's shadow is constrained by Harry enclosing the coin in a circle in the same way a Fae is constrained to keep its word has less appeal to me than a world where Harry enclosing the coin in a circle constrains Lasciel's Shadow the same way Lara Raith is constrained to keep her word.

Thrice I ask and done: which is the one your theory is describing?

(I admit, I've been wanting to say that for a while)
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Offline knnn

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Re: Questions
« Reply #82 on: March 15, 2012, 08:15:36 PM »
From White Night (Harry talking to Lash):

Quote
{Harry} How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh?  Longer than three years?

{Lash} Never.
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Questions
« Reply #83 on: March 15, 2012, 11:08:01 PM »
Just to be clear: i beleive that at the moment harry picked up the coin, the shadow entered him. At that moment was the .only contact between lasciel and harry. She never contafcted him or lash again until her new host in changes. Harrys only contact was allways with lash. I believe its part of the rules - the fallen remains in the coin, trapped, and with very limited awareness or power until a mortal chooses to take it up of thie own free will. The shadow is just the sales department.
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Offline Serack

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Re: Questions
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2012, 01:44:31 AM »
Look at the type of people the Denarians usually go for:

That's bound to skew the average considerably. Look at Nicodemus' reaction in the same book:

On the one hand, he acts somewhat surprised that Lasciel's shadow hasn't managed to tempt him yet. But it's an "huh, that's odd" level of surprise not a "that's impossible" level of surprise (such as he'll show just a little later in the book). We know/believe Nicodemus thinks long term. He naturally expects that even if Harry picks up the coin, he won't instantly grow a goatee, but rather try to keep it hidden from his allies as long as possible. He never bothered looking for Harry again after giving him the coin, so clearly, his plans did not require/expect Harry taking up Lasciel right this instant.

I suspect Lasciel's Shadow was smart enough to realize she had no real hurry to corrupt Harry, and knew that if she wasn't subtle enough about it, Michael and Co. would do everything in their power to oppose her. Discretion was the better part of valor, that's all. Heck, we know/believe Lasciel and Anduriel don't get along. From Nicodemus' reaction above I would hazard the thought Nick thought Lasciel was taking her time just to be contrary (just like Harry is).

Most of the underlying thoughts behind my theories on this subject were developed in the books prior to SmF, and I have to admit that when Nic made those comments about Lasciel's shadow, I was rather surprised.  Up until then I was still thinking that having a demonic shadow so discrete (m-w.com: constituting a separate entity : individually distinct) from the original demon was pretty unique to Harry...  I figured that typically the "shadow" gets reabsorbed (Lash's term actually) into the original demon so much earlier in the process, or that it typically isn't usually so thoroughly cut off from the original entity, that referring to it as its own entity rather than just as "Lasciel" would be kinda pointless.

So those 2 bits of dialogue from Nic in SmF really threw a monkey into my ideas more than most of the arguments that have been made in this thread have. 

Hm, let's use another example that's also from the books: what Harry calls "Old World Rules". Let's pick one specific one: keeping your promises. We know that Fae have to keep their word. We know that a wizard who makes a promise upon his power has to keep his word, or his own magic will attack him. Someone like Lara Raith, on the other hand, is free to go against her word. However, she never does, and whenever Harry suggests to her that she could, she looks at him as though he suddenly started talking an alien language. She's not constrained from breaking her word by any power or magic like the Fae are, but her own upbringing / self-interest make the idea basically impossible.

I want to believe the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where Sanya bears the Sword of Hope because he's the kind of guy that laughs when Rosanna tries to tempt him once again. I don't like thinking that the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where the Sword of Hope needs to protect Sanya from Rosanna's new temptation (I'm willing to accept a world that's a little of both, of course; shades of gray ftw).

Unfortunately, this has taken on an entirely new meaning to me after reading this article earlier today.

Quote
A world where Lasciel's shadow is constrained by Harry enclosing the coin in a circle in the same way a Fae is constrained to keep its word has less appeal to me than a world where Harry enclosing the coin in a circle constrains Lasciel's Shadow the same way Lara Raith is constrained to keep her word.

Thrice I ask and done: which is the one your theory is describing?

(I admit, I've been wanting to say that for a while)

Honestly, when you try to delineate them into two opposing theories, I keep hearing the opposing theory as "The circle/prison was pointless" even though that is not exactly what you are saying.  This... mental quirk makes it hard for me to actually address the actual question for some reason.  I can say that I am rather disabused of the idea that the circle was responsible for completely isolated from the originating demon in a manor unique to Harry, and because of that I am not as attached to the idea that the prison was as... fundamentally constraining as you describe it... 

I'm actually starting to think of it as being caught between the two states, being both a wave and a particle at the same time.  And I don't know the box will ever really be opened either (yah I mixed my quantum theory metaphors there)

Edit: I was going to edit in some extra thoughts, but they got long enough to justify a new post.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 01:53:16 AM by Serack »
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Offline wyltok

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Re: Questions
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2012, 01:57:42 AM »
Link

Maybe that'll give you something better to associate gray with.
Every time you do something, somebody says: "(gasp!) That has this implication and this implication and that implication!" and you go like: "No, what I really meant was, the curtains were blue."
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Offline Serack

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Re: Questions
« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2012, 02:18:10 AM »
Something extra that I would like to point out is that what ultimately happened with Lash is unique to Harry.  I have said in previous topics that even if Lash hadn't committed suicide at the end of WN, she was severely fraying at the edges, and probably would have unraveled or required some recuperation anyways.  I see this as possibly being due to one of two not necessarily exclusive reasons.

  • A Denarian Shadow was never intended to last for as long as "Lash" had.  The shear amount of time the... shadow spell spent isolated from its source caused it to weaken and start losing potency.  (plus the rigors it was subjected too over that time period, but that kinda ties this reason to #2, hence the 2 not necessarily being exclusive)
  • Lasciel's shadow started thinking of itself in terms of being a discrete entity that could possibly live independently of her originator.  This concept was a huge identity crisis for her that frayed the very fabric of her being.  This idea/reason ties pretty closely to the concepts Jacqueline Lichtenberg talks about in the article I quoted earlier.

Reason number 2 is why I don't get terribly hung up at all on the idea that Harry's accomplishment of banishing Lasciel's influence might be cheapened by claiming that the "magical prison" was the source/focus of Harry's ability to resist her at the onset.  The truly amazing accomplishment wasn't the resistance itself, but the fact that Harry actually changed the shadow for the better.  (that fact/conclusion is based off of the Lichtenberg comments and a WoJ saying "that Harry actually changed" Lash)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:58:32 AM by Serack »
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Offline Serack

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Re: Questions
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2012, 10:50:06 AM »
btw wyltok, the Lash sub plot is probably my favorite topic about the DF (hence my through involvement in this discussion with you).  If you haven't read it before, please take a look at my old pet lash theory reposted over here.  I wrote it back in 2010, and some of the events of GS make it a little outdated, but you might still find it an interesting read.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:09:58 AM by Serack »
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Questions
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2012, 12:56:18 PM »
Dont worry then lash will be back;)  just not for a long while i suspect..she knows too much.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Questions
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2012, 01:57:48 PM »
She's already back as of Ghost Story, and Jim has said that he can't withold the information about "power over Outsiders" from us much longer.
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