Author Topic: Questions  (Read 53986 times)

Offline peregrine

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Re: Questions
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2012, 08:37:00 PM »

There is certainly something going on about the Denarians that I don't understand because I am unsure how Lasciel could have wispered to Harry in Changes...  Jim's answer to AA's question at last years BBB Q&A only served to confuse me further.
My personal theory is that as Harry never took up the coin, he has not had the opportunity to truly cast it aside, so he's the closest thing to a bearer Lasciel has right now, thus, she can whisper at him now that he's taken her out of the circle.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Questions
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2012, 08:44:02 PM »
My personal theory is that as Harry never took up the coin, he has not had the opportunity to truly cast it aside, so he's the closest thing to a bearer Lasciel has right now, thus, she can whisper at him now that he's taken her out of the circle.

So the only way to resist temptation is to first give in to temptation and then change your mind? No, I think free will requires that one can reject the coin without first accepting it. Such an act would require a definitive renouncement of all the coin offers. In the past, that has only been accomplished by giving up all magic power (to resist the temptation of power one must relinquish all power). Harry, however, managed to do it by tempting the temptress.

Offline khatre

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Re: Questions
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2012, 08:46:24 PM »
or at least her shadow.
"You did a bad thing once. It does not make you a monster." "What if it does? What if it does Harry?" "Molly, you are a good person. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Not even yourself." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "You're okay. You aren't a monster. You're gonna be alright, grasshopper."

Offline wyltok

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Re: Questions
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2012, 08:49:05 PM »
This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry

If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.

From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.

Serack, just to make sure, Cozarkian's post touches on what you mean by constrained, right? Since Id!Harry didn't give up the coin, Lasciel's shadow could offer Hellfire to him. I must admit, there's a certain elegance to it I find quite appealing: Free Will is never really broken, since only those willing to be tempted are offered temptation.

On the other hand, we know that fully giving up a coin does not require a magic circle (since Sanya did it by just letting the coin go). So it's the "conscious act of rejection", the "concrete choice" that cuts off access to the wielder's conscious mind from the Shadow implanted in the wielder's brain, rather than any magic itself (at least, if I understand your theory correctly). A total rejection like Sanya's presumably requires both a concious and subconcious choice. And the choice can be coerced (by say, threatening to kill someone unless they give up the coin; Quintus Cassius' subconcious mind didn't want to die either, after all).

I think it's safe to assume that the offer of temptation isn't always Hellfire. After all, what would a non-wizard want with the stuff? But there's probably always some sort of offer made to either the concious or subconcious mind that opens the door for full-on temptation and illusions.

When you look at it like that, it still sounds elegant. It also sounds slow as molasses. If the Fallen is only allowed to offer some sort of boost and has to wait until after the offer is taken before they're allowed to actually tempt the person, how the heck is their success rate usually so good that they get a person to pick up the coin in a few weeks at most?

On the gripping hand, this does align with the idea that forcing someone to pick up a coin won't work, because even after you are forced to pick the coin, you still have to accept the first offer of power without either the Fallen or the Fallen's shadow being allowed to tempt you. Unless, of course, they cheat.

Serack, would you mind verifying if your concept of Constrained matches with my understanding of it above? How does it jive with the idea that cheating can happen? How does it jive with the idea that Lasciel's shadow took so long (between Id!Harry using Hellfire at the end of BR to Shiela's appearance at the beginning of DB) to cheat? Was there some further constraint I'm missing, or was she biding her time? Because, returning again to the original argument, the question is whether Lasciel didn't cheat earlier beacuse she couldn't, or because she wanted to save her Ace-in-the-Hole for the best time possible.

The point I'm trying to make is Occam's razor: If your theory requires there to be a constraint (Id!Harry using Hellfire) as well as a choice on the Shadow's part to justify why it couldn't cheat earlier, and my theory only requires a choice on the Shadow's part to justify why it didn't cheat earlier, then I believe my theory has the advantage of simplicity going for it.

[Editted to change the sentence "cuts off the Coin from the Shadow" to "cuts off the shadow's access to the wielder's conscious mind" which I think is the argument being made.]
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 09:51:09 PM by wyltok »
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Questions
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2012, 08:51:24 PM »
So the only way to resist temptation is to first give in to temptation and then change your mind?
No, Harry has done just fine resisting the temptation without giving in.  But the only way to get the tempter to stop tempting you is to give in.  You either give in, or constantly deal with having to resist it.  How do you know you won't like it if you don't give it a taste first?

Offline khatre

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Re: Questions
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2012, 08:59:50 PM »
Quote
On the gripping hand

Thanks wyltok, i have not seen that phrase in a looooong time.  ;D
"You did a bad thing once. It does not make you a monster." "What if it does? What if it does Harry?" "Molly, you are a good person. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Not even yourself." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "You're okay. You aren't a monster. You're gonna be alright, grasshopper."

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Questions
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2012, 09:10:31 PM »
Here are two options: you are correct, and lasciel was quitly whispering in his mind by herslef. This cause GS, and now that harry knows he can take actions against it. Or B; i am correct, lasciel has a new host likley somone he knows. Who has now tried to kill himtwice and will be a major adversary in the future. You are Jim... Whic do you write?   ;)   
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline khatre

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Re: Questions
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2012, 09:15:55 PM »
Here are two options: you are correct, and lasciel was quitly whispering in his mind by herslef. This cause GS, and now that harry knows he can take actions against it. Or B; i am correct, lasciel has a new host likley somone he knows. Who has now tried to kill himtwice and will be a major adversary in the future. You are Jim... Whic do you write?   ;)   
I totally misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that Lasciel (whisper) was using the old connection from when Harry first picked up the coin instead of Lasciel getting a new holder. My bad  ;)
"You did a bad thing once. It does not make you a monster." "What if it does? What if it does Harry?" "Molly, you are a good person. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Not even yourself." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "You're okay. You aren't a monster. You're gonna be alright, grasshopper."

Offline DragonEyes

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Re: Questions
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2012, 09:19:24 PM »
Here are two options: you are correct, and lasciel was quitly whispering in his mind by herslef. This cause GS, and now that harry knows he can take actions against it. Or B; i am correct, lasciel has a new host likley somone he knows. Who has now tried to kill himtwice and will be a major adversary in the future. You are Jim... Whic do you write?   ;)

I'm pretty sure that Lasciel has a new host two.
You've managed- in our three years together- to kill not only my god, but my father, my brother, and my fiancée. That's kind of like a homicidal hat trick. It's a strange foundation for a relationship.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Questions
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2012, 09:24:48 PM »
When you look at it like that, it still sounds elegant. It also sounds slow as molasses. If the Fallen is only allowed to offer some sort of boost and has to wait until after the offer is taken before they're allowed to actually tempt the person, how the heck is their success rate usually so good that they get a person to pick up the coin in a few weeks at most?

I don't think most bearers take that first step of rejection. They probably slip the coin in their pocket and carry it around like a secret treasure. Without that first rejection, they would be open to the full temptation at the start.

On the gripping hand, this does align with the idea that forcing someone to pick up a coin won't work, because even after you are forced to pick the coin, you still have to accept the first offer of power without either the Fallen or the Fallen's shadow being allowed to tempt you. Unless, of course, they cheat.

No, I think once you touch the coin the Fallen can try to tempt you. It is only following an act of refusal (Harry sealing the coin) that the Fallen is forced to resort to more subtle means.

How do you know you won't like it if you don't give it a taste first?

Classic temptation, classic folly. I don't need to taste peach pie (which I would probably like) to know it is unhealthy and I don't need to steal a sports car to know it is morally wrong.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Questions
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2012, 09:32:35 PM »
Here are two options: you are correct, and lasciel was quitly whispering in his mind by herslef. This cause GS, and now that harry knows he can take actions against it. Or B; i am correct, lasciel has a new host likley somone he knows. Who has now tried to kill himtwice and will be a major adversary in the future. You are Jim... Whic do you write?   ;)

You mean option A) Harry must doubt and closely scrutinize his every thought for fear that he is the unwitting pawn of an entity he thought he defeated but now knows still has direct access to his brain or B) Harry has yet another enemy who got lucky and caught Harry off-guard but really isn't any more powerful than Nicodemus or his other enemies.

I personally think Lasciel has a new host, but sometimes a poll is all about how you write the question.

Offline khatre

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Re: Questions
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2012, 09:41:05 PM »
Who is Lasciel's new holder?

1) no one, no new holder
2) Elaine
3) wizard (fill in the blank)
4) vanilla mortal (fill in the blank)
5) Marcone
6) Mister
7) Molly/Mab
etc ..
"You did a bad thing once. It does not make you a monster." "What if it does? What if it does Harry?" "Molly, you are a good person. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Not even yourself." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "You're okay. You aren't a monster. You're gonna be alright, grasshopper."

Offline peregrine

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Re: Questions
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2012, 09:46:32 PM »
It would have been only maybe 1 or 2 years or so for Lasciel to get a new host, which seems fairly quick as such things go.  Especially since Lasciel can't tell anyone where she is, that she's back on the market, as it were.  Nic thought Lash was still in Harry, if getting rid of the coin would have eliminated that temptation and link, he wouldn't have tried to speak with her still.

Offline khatre

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Re: Questions
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2012, 09:52:43 PM »
just a thought...
Maby it was not the denarians that freed Lasciel from the church. The BC would probably be more than happy to have an inventive intelligent and powerful ally if not totally under their control at least on their side.
"You did a bad thing once. It does not make you a monster." "What if it does? What if it does Harry?" "Molly, you are a good person. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Not even yourself." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "You're okay. You aren't a monster. You're gonna be alright, grasshopper."

Offline peregrine

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Re: Questions
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2012, 10:00:34 PM »
just a thought...
Maby it was not the denarians that freed Lasciel from the church. The BC would probably be more than happy to have an inventive intelligent and powerful ally if not totally under their control at least on their side.
Have another inventive intelligent and powerful ally.  There's at least one Denarian contributing hellfire to the BC.  Of course, Nic, and by extension the majority of the others are only on the same side of the BC in that they're both evil.  It's a gamble I personally would be unwilling to take.