Questions

[Paladino]

You may be right, but based on the evidence, we can only conclude that the Whisper pushed him into both decisions. The phrasing of the whisper was to show that he was weak and a failure, but the decision to kill himself only came as part of concluding that he would have to accept becoming a monster. He had to make both decisions together.

Even if you argue that Molly's memory monkeying gave him a chance to make the same choice again, he took much longer to come to that conclusion, weighed his options and finally arrived at the same point. The whisper was probably aware of that, but it needed to push Harry into both decisions to get him to commit suicide. Harry wouldn't just kill himself. He'd make his life worth something first, make his death worthwhile. All I'm saying is that Harry needed to decide the one along with the other.

The prhasing of the whisper was for him to feel guilty, like he is not good enough. Forcing him to belive that he will probally fail again after he becomes WK and turn in to a monster. And because of that belive he had to kill himself. 

He would turn to the WK mantle anyway. He may have pretended to have other choices but he didn't. There was no time to pull a darkhallow powerfull enough, and there was no time to band the denarians together or even if he could, to be sure they would work together or even if they would have enough power to beat the RC.

[DragonEyes]

The prhasing of the whisper was for him to feel guilty, like he is not good enough. Forcing him to belive that he will probally fail again after he becomes WK and turn in to a monster. And because of that belive he had to kill himself. 

I don't disagree with you at all, but my point is that he had to decide both together, or he'd never have decided to kill himself. Harry wouldn't kill himself without having some way he might succeed. Whenever he's decided to kill himself in the past, there was either a glimmer of hope or at least the impression he could accomplish something. To decide to kill himself, he had to decide to become the Winter Knight, since she couldn't hope to trick a Denarian into letting him die, nor could he undo the deaths that would be needed for a dark hallow. Mab is demonstrably fallable, which made her the logical choice.

The whisper pushed both actions at once, probably with the ultimate goal of convincing him to kill himself, but, counter to what Peregrine said, it was not just the one action.

[knnn]

I am not sure I am convinced by that argument.  Consider that Harry is lying there, spine broken.  His daughter is going to die in a few hours and his grandfather along with her (as well as a possible strike against the WC, and others he loves and cares about).

His options:

1.  Lie down and do nothing.
2.  Find some way to heal himself and try to save her, even if its a suicide run.

Given Harry's previous actions (assault on AT, hiring Kincaid without knowing how to pay him, etc.), which option do you think he would choose?

[DragonEyes]

I am not sure I am convinced by that argument.  Consider that Harry is lying there, spine broken.  His daughter is going to die in a few hours and his grandfather along with her (as well as a possible strike against the WC, and others he loves and cares about).

His options:

1.  Lie down and do nothing.
2.  Find some way to heal himself and try to save her, even if its a suicide run.

Given Harry's previous actions (assault on AT, hiring Kincaid without knowing how to pay him, etc.), which option do you think he would choose?

Are you refering to what he would have done without the whisper? It would be 2.

With the whisper, it was also 2, but with granularity to the decision. To wit, he immediately discarded Uriel as an option, jumped straight to the WK choice, and decided to kill himself at the same time.

[Paladino]

I don't disagree with you at all, but my point is that he had to decide both together, or he'd never have decided to kill himself. Harry wouldn't kill himself without having some way he might succeed. Whenever he's decided to kill himself in the past, there was either a glimmer of hope or at least the impression he could accomplish something. To decide to kill himself, he had to decide to become the Winter Knight, since she couldn't hope to trick a Denarian into letting him die, nor could he undo the deaths that would be needed for a dark hallow. Mab is demonstrably fallable, which made her the logical choice.

The whisper pushed both actions at once, probably with the ultimate goal of convincing him to kill himself, but, counter to what Peregrine said, it was not just the one action.

I desagree, Harry knew he woudl have to go for power from Mab or another source he didn't like, he alredy had that decided. What he didn't know is what he would do to avoid becoming a monster after that.

It's like this:

I need power, I'll have to take Mab's offer, but and after? What I'm gona do? Well it's all my fault, so I'll just suicide and avoid becoming a monster.

This whisper triggered how he was going to do his deal, not the deal itself.

[DragonEyes]

I desagree, Harry knew he woudl have to go for power from Mab or another source he didn't like, he alredy had that decided. What he didn't know is what he would do to avoid becoming a monster after that.

It's like this:

I need power, I'll have to take Mab's offer, but and after? What I'm gona do? Well it's all my fault, so I'll just suicide and avoid becoming a monster.

This whisper triggered how he was going to do his deal, not the deal itself.

Okay. End result is the same, in either case. I just think the road to get there also appears to have varied between the two times that he came to the decision.

[Paladino]

Okay. End result is the same, in either case. I just think the road to get there also appears to have varied between the two times that he came to the decision.

I see the road like this, Harry in the top of the empire state. He has to get down there. (Get down there is the decision to grab power from Mab). Now how's hes gona get down there? (What he's gona do after he becomes the WK) So, normally he would take the stairs (longer and harder way), but because of the whisper he decide he will just jump.. (Quick and "easy" way out) (Plus stupid).

So there are two decision he has to make, I don't see the whispering affecting the first one, only the second.

[DragonEyes]

I see the road like this, Harry in the top of the empire state. He has to get down there. (Get down there is the decision to grab power from Mab). Now how's hes gona get down there? (What he's gona do after he becomes the WK) So, normally he would take the stairs (longer and harder way), but because of the whisper he decide he will just jump.. (Quick and "easy" way out) (Plus stupid).

So there are two decision he has to make, I don't see the whispering affecting the first one, only the second.

See, the second time, he tried to use a hang glider affectionately named Uriel first. The first, after the whisper, he didn't even consider his hang glider.

[Paladino]

See, the second time, he tried to use a hang glider affectionately named Uriel first. The first, after the whisper, he didn't even consider his hang glider.

Nop, the second time it was more like: Maybe I don't need to get down there, I can ask to the archangel to bring the ground up here.
Asking Uriel is trying to make a diferent first decision (where to get power from), it does not alter the second (how to avoid becoming a monster)..

[DragonEyes]

Nop, the second time it was more like: Maybe I don't need to get down there, I can ask to the archangel to bring the ground up here.
Asking Uriel is trying to make a diferent first decision (where to get power from), it does not alter the second (how to avoid becoming a monster)..

It's your metaphor. Either way, he didn't even consider it the first time around. That's my point.

[Ms Duck]

To use your analogy, without the shadow, harry decided to turn around and run up the down escalator as hard as he can. He may go down, but it will be fighting hard every step.

[Paladino]

It's your metaphor. Either way, he didn't even consider it the first time around. That's my point.

I understand your point, but I personally belive that the whispering did no push him to accept the WK mantle. I feel like, when there was the whispering, Harry didn't worry much what to do later, he quickly decided to kill himself. But in the second part, he still didn't know what to do later, and this doubt led him to think in other options he didn't before.

Changing subject, assuming the whisper influenced Harry to become WK, wouldn't Mab have a debt to the whisperer?

To use your analogy, without the shadow, harry decided to turn around and run up the down escalator as hard as he can. He may go down, but it will be fighting hard every step.

That's my point, he would have to get to the ground anyway. Jumping was the easy way out. The stairs was the hard way. Picking the easy or the hard (that is the choice the whisper affected IMHOP) way wouldn't change the need to get to the ground.

[AcornArmy]

The Whisperer caused Harry to lose his last shred of hope. I think maybe it's as simple as that. With his memory gone, that shred of hope was still there, so Harry called Uriel to confirm the status of his injury, and hopefully to get a solution to his problems that didn't involve going to Mab. It was thin, but it was his last possible option before he was left with nothing better than Mab.

I think Uriel actually increased Harry's hope, though, by telling him that if he did it for love, there might be a way back from whatever happened to him as the Winter Knight. So Harry called Mab.

After the Whisperer spoke to him, though, Harry no longer believed he even deserved something better, much less that it was possible. So he went to the Winter Knight option without the hope of being able to redeem himself from what Mab was going to do to him. That made killing himself before Mab could get her hands on him seem like the best option.

 -- Actually, now that I think about it, what the Whisperer accomplished was something more tangible than that, something so friggin' obvious that I can't believe it hasn't been thought of already(including by me, until just this moment): the seven words steered Harry away from calling Uriel. I mean... duh, right? With his memory erased, Harry acted as he would have acted without the Whisperer's comment, which was to call Uriel and ask for help. Uriel didn't give him any solid help, but he did give Harry hope. Scratch my original argument-- I think it was correct in way, just not in the way I originally thought. Harry didn't have much hope left, other than Uriel, so he called Uriel, and the archangel gave him hope for his future. Without that, Harry would have moved on to the suicide option.

I think that's it. Put simply, the Whisperer threw Harry off of his natural course of calling Uriel. Which led to him committing suicide, yes, but only as a natural side-effect of being forced to become the Winter Knight, without also having hope for redemption from being the Winter Knight. It wasn't a question of whether or not he would become the WK, though; I think that was always going to happen.

[DragonEyes]

The Whisperer caused Harry to lose his last shred of hope. I think maybe it's as simple as that. With his memory gone, that shred of hope was still there, so Harry called Uriel to confirm the status of his injury, and hopefully to get a solution to his problems that didn't involve going to Mab. It was thin, but it was his last possible option before he was left with nothing better than Mab.

I think Uriel actually increased Harry's hope, though, by telling him that if he did it for love, there might be a way back from whatever happened to him as the Winter Knight. So Harry called Mab.

After the Whisperer spoke to him, though, Harry no longer believed he even deserved something better, much less that it was possible. So he went to the Winter Knight option without the hope of being able to redeem himself from what Mab was going to do to him. That made killing himself before Mab could get her hands on him seem like the best option.

 -- Actually, now that I think about it, what the Whisperer accomplished was something more tangible than that, something so friggin' obvious that I can't believe it hasn't been thought of already(including by me, until just this moment): the seven words steered Harry away from calling Uriel. I mean... duh, right? With his memory erased, Harry acted as he would have acted without the Whisperer's comment, which was to call Uriel and ask for help. Uriel didn't give him any solid help, but he did give Harry hope. Scratch my original argument-- I think it was correct in way, just not in the way I originally thought. Harry didn't have much hope left, other than Uriel, so he called Uriel, and the archangel gave him hope for his future. Without that, Harry would have moved on to the suicide option.

I think that's it. Put simply, the Whisperer threw Harry off of his natural course of calling Uriel. Which led to him committing suicide, yes, but only as a natural side-effect of being forced to become the Winter Knight, without also having hope for redemption from being the Winter Knight. It wasn't a question of whether or not he would become the WK, though; I think that was always going to happen.

See, I'm refering to the route, not the result. The whisper altered his route as well as the result.

[AcornArmy]

See, I'm refering to the route, not the result. The whisper altered his route as well as the result.

Yeah, but I think the two are not independent. Altering the route caused the change in result, because a route that didn't include a chat with Uriel led straight and only to suicide after becoming the Winter Knight. Uriel was what gave Harry the hope for a future.

The difference in what Harry does first seems odd, if you focus on the Winter Knight thing vs. the suicide thing(it did to me too, until a few minutes ago), because why wouldn't he have tried to call Uriel both times? But if the primary difference in Harry's decision tree was simply that the Whisper made him feel like such a shit that he didn't deserve to call on Uriel, then the rest of what happened falls naturally from that fact. Without Uriel, suicide; with Uriel, no suicide.