Charity Carpenter: Homemaker

[JoshTheValiant]

On the whole, I see homemaking as a cluster of skills rather than one skill for everything. Empathy, Craftsmanship, Scholarship, Presence, to name a few important ones. Pretty much like you don't have a skill "magic", but three separate skills for different tasks in a wizards career.

Position acknowledged on the rest of your points, but on this spot I want to point out that not all occupations combine skills like this.  What does a Scientist do that isn't Scholarship?  A Librarian, as far as I can tell, ALSO uses Scholarship for their entire job.  Strictly speaking, a Private Investigator only actually needs Investigation to do their job, though Stealth and Alertness often carry obvious incentive, and certain pulpy investigators require a whole mess of other skills.

Additionally, I'm not suggesting that Homemaking automatically covers the rigors of a mother (or anyone) actually teaching or raising or nurturing children (or anyone else).  Just the aspects that have to do with the sanctity of the home.  Empathy is still important for emotional healing and knowing those under your care on a deep level, Scholarship is still important for teaching and instructing, as is Conviction.

As far as skill trappings being found elsewhere... how do you feel about Burglary and Survival?  Those seem like rather superfluous skills to me, in terms of trappings.  Investigation covers a lot of both, and what is lockpicking if not skillful use of tools (Craftsmanship) and what is hacking but advanced programming savvy (Scholarship)?  Should they be cut, in your opinion?  (Honest question)

[Sanctaphrax]

Some occupations require one skill, others require several. And no matter what you do, Resources and Contacts and social skills will be useful.

Burglary could be split up pretty well, but lockpicking doesn't quite fit into Craftsmanship. Then again, you could always ditch that trapping and make anyone who wants to pick locks take a stunt for it. If I wanted to reduce the number of skills (which I don't) I'd probably axe Burglary first.

Survival has a number of difficult-to-duplicate trappings, though. Handling animals, riding animals, and surviving outdoors come to mind.

PS: I think it's easier to make new skills if you get rid of some old skills in the process, and vice versa.

For example, if you wanted to make a skill that covers arguing and formal debates, you'd have it easier if you were to get rid of Rapport. Then you'd have to move the remaining Rapport trappings into other skills, which would create a chain reaction.

Your best bet in such a case would probably be to rewrite/replace all 5 social skills.

[Haru]

As far as skill trappings being found elsewhere... how do you feel about Burglary and Survival?  Those seem like rather superfluous skills to me, in terms of trappings.  Investigation covers a lot of both, and what is lockpicking if not skillful use of tools (Craftsmanship) and what is hacking but advanced programming savvy (Scholarship)?  Should they be cut, in your opinion?  (Honest question)

I agree, the 3 trappings from Burglary could easily be shifted over to investigation (casing), stealth (infiltration) and craftsmanship (lockpicking). In fact, they are even worded so that they are used with or like trappings of other skills. Yeah, I'm with Sactaphrax, it could probably be cut.
On the other hand, burglary is sort of the "think like a criminal" skill. I admit, it is a bit ambiguous, but I would leave it in just for this. A high burglary skill often indicates some sort of criminal activity on the side of the character. Depending on what skills he uses in conjunction, he becomes a different type of criminal. Of course, a good detective might have high burglary too, to think like a criminal. This could of course be done with a stunt. I think the difference to the other skills is that knowing how to do something is one thing, actually doing it (and in a criminal way) might be another entirely. Again, I admit that it is very sketchy.

Hacking btw. is a burglary stunt, moving the trapping from scholarship to burglary.

Survival has its merits entirely in itself. It is the wilderness skill and I don't think it can be covered by other skills all too well.

I think in general, every character concept should have 2-4 skills it focuses on. Mind you, I mean character, not necessarily job. If a job only needs 1 skill, that is totally ok, but it would probably not be too interesting to play a character like that. If you mix in a secondary concept, you should be fine. A character with a high concept of "Librarian" seems pretty dull. A "clued in librarian" or a "were-rat librarian" would be more interesting. Though admittedly the latter would only use different skills in were form, but still.

The same goes for charity. If she is just a character in the background, you don't really need a skillset for her anyway, and if she becomes a main character, she is going to need a bunch of skills to reflect her, so you should be covered either way.

[JoshTheValiant]

Burglary could be split up pretty well, but lockpicking doesn't quite fit into Craftsmanship. Then again, you could always ditch that trapping and make anyone who wants to pick locks take a stunt for it. If I wanted to reduce the number of skills (which I don't) I'd probably axe Burglary first.

Survival has a number of difficult-to-duplicate trappings, though. Handling animals, riding animals, and surviving outdoors come to mind.

I disagree about Lockpicking.  What else is picking a lock except using tools to work on a lock?  If sewing can be Craftsmanship, lockpicking definitely should, since a lock is an actual mechanical object.

Regarding Survival, handling animals looks to me like Presence (command and authority are two things that animals do tend to respond to, could also see an Empathy stunt for this), riding is definitely Athletics (could see stunts for Might for manhandling beasts and Driving because it's hilarious in concept), and scavenging seems like Investigation modified by Scholarship (you need to be able to FIND the food, but your biology class will tell you which mushrooms are bad for you).  Seems straightforward to me.  *shrug*

On the other hand, burglary is sort of the "think like a criminal" skill. I admit, it is a bit ambiguous, but I would leave it in just for this. A high burglary skill often indicates some sort of criminal activity on the side of the character. Depending on what skills he uses in conjunction, he becomes a different type of criminal. Of course, a good detective might have high burglary too, to think like a criminal. This could of course be done with a stunt. I think the difference to the other skills is that knowing how to do something is one thing, actually doing it (and in a criminal way) might be another entirely. Again, I admit that it is very sketchy.

Hacking btw. is a burglary stunt, moving the trapping from scholarship to burglary.

Darn it, I thought I remembered there being a hacking stunt, but I didn't double check my books to make sure.  Point granted.

I see your point about Burglary being a think like a criminal skill (and I saw your point about the argument being sketchy, I'm just elaborating on the counter argument, not picking on you, don't worry.  ), but I think that is better handled by the Empathy skill (with a stunt like Criminal Psychology if you really want to emphasize it) or an Aspect like Dirty Cop or Elbow Deep In Corruption or To Catch A Criminal.  In general, I think anything dealing mindset is the domain of Aspects.  After all, Fists can be the skill of a prize fighter or a street punk or a black ops military guy or an army grunt.  Guns can be the skill of a police officer, a sniper, or an assassin.  Empathy could be a mother, a psychologist, or a sadist.  I see skills as neutral, and their use determiend by the character.

As a complete side point, as long as I'm thinking about it, I fold Weapons and Fists together into a unified Fight skill.  They're both limited enough in their trappings to not overwhelm the issue, imo.  It also trims down on their inflated stunt lists compared to other skills, especially if you fold in a martial knowledge trapping the same way other skills have limited related knowledge trappings (gun knowledge for Guns, art appreciation for Performance, etc.)

[Haru]

Following your logic, most skills can be derived from one or two more basic skills, but that would lead to pretty short list of skills that wouldn't be enough to fill the pyramid.

Lore for example is basically a specialised Scholarship skill. Deceit is a combination of empathy and performance. Investigation is Alertness combined with Scholarship. Intimidation can be emulated by Presence + any number of skills, depending on the way you want to do it.

But what all skills have in common is, that they perfectly represent the magical gumshoe genre.

Survival kind of has an extra role for me. Just because you know how to play a crowd or command a group doesn't mean you know how to handle an animal. Wilderness skills are almost unnecessary in an urban setting, so you can lump it all into one skill, but I believe it should still be there, just to separate those who have hands on experience from an academic. The same kind of goes for Burglary.

I know, that is something that can and certainly should be represented by aspects, but there is more. Burglary could be covered by other skills, but it would cover way more than what burglary does. The problem is, lockpicking can fit both skills, burglary and craftsmanship, but they come at it from entirely different angles. Yes, Burglary's trappings read pretty much like stunts on various other skills, but like I said above, so does lore in regards to scholarship. I would keep it just for the feel (you know, detectives and gangsters 'n' stuff), and (to come back to the topic) don't really see the need for a homemaking skill for pretty much the same reason. Even in the novels, it is mostly glossed over, and in the game, I don't think it is a skill that will get much use. You either gloss over the things that are covered, or you go into detail, but then you can take the original skills for that.

I might not be entirely coherent right now due to lack of sleep, so if anything up there is strange, I will gladly sort it out later.

[Sanctaphrax]

I disagree about Lockpicking.  What else is picking a lock except using tools to work on a lock?  If sewing can be Craftsmanship, lockpicking definitely should, since a lock is an actual mechanical object.

Regarding Survival, handling animals looks to me like Presence (command and authority are two things that animals do tend to respond to, could also see an Empathy stunt for this), riding is definitely Athletics (could see stunts for Might for manhandling beasts and Driving because it's hilarious in concept), and scavenging seems like Investigation modified by Scholarship (you need to be able to FIND the food, but your biology class will tell you which mushrooms are bad for you).  Seems straightforward to me.  *shrug*

All of Weapons is using tools. So is some of Scholarship and most of Performance. Also all of Driving and of Guns. Just because it uses tools doesn't mean it's Craftsmanship.

The question you have to ask yourself when deciding what skill something should fall under is not "can I justify this as X", it's "should a character with Superb X be good at this". Your suggestions fail that test. Being a great detective should not imply an ability to survive in the wilderness.

If you're thinking of pointing out that Weapons lets you use all weapons and Scholarship lets you access all fields of science, you're missing the point. See, being generally competent academically or with weaponry makes sense. Most people have specializations (stunts) but the field as a whole is something that you can learn all at once.

[Mr. Death]

I could see a stunt easily making Lockpicking a Craftsmanship trapping: A locksmith, for example, would presumably be able to pick locks if he's able to build them.

But anyway, the main problem I see with a Homemaking skill is...why? Do you expect PCs to be stay-at-home moms/dads? Is cooking and cleaning up the living room a reasonable part of supernatural investigations?

This is a game about, in large part, investigating, solving, and fighting supernatural crimes and creatures. The skills that exist are applicable to that end. Aside from making a threshold, which the RAW accounts for anyway, I don't see what Homemaking has to do with what the game is about.

Anyone who's a dedicated homemaker to the point of making this skill necessary is likely to be an NPC, and an NPC you can largely handwave things like this anyway.

[Sanctaphrax]

This is a game about, in large part, investigating, solving, and fighting supernatural crimes and creatures.

Not really. This game can be used for many different things.

[Mr. Death]

That's why I said "in large part."

Yes, you can use it for many different things, but the focus tends to be on getting out there and going on adventures in/with/around/against the supernatural community. Given that, I don't see how a dedicated homemaker would be much more than a flavor NPC. You could build a character around homemaking, but I don't really see how such a character would actively participate in a campaign enough to be a PC.

Every other skill, I look at it, and I can say, "Yes, you could make that your Superb skill and base a PC around it." Homemaking? Unless we're talking about Maid: The RPG, I don't think so.

[JoshTheValiant]

Following your logic, most skills can be derived from one or two more basic skills, but that would lead to pretty short list of skills that wouldn't be enough to fill the pyramid.

Lore for example is basically a specialised Scholarship skill. Deceit is a combination of empathy and performance. Investigation is Alertness combined with Scholarship. Intimidation can be emulated by Presence + any number of skills, depending on the way you want to do it.

But what all skills have in common is, that they perfectly represent the magical gumshoe genre.

Survival kind of has an extra role for me. Just because you know how to play a crowd or command a group doesn't mean you know how to handle an animal. Wilderness skills are almost unnecessary in an urban setting, so you can lump it all into one skill, but I believe it should still be there, just to separate those who have hands on experience from an academic. The same kind of goes for Burglary.

I know, that is something that can and certainly should be represented by aspects, but there is more. Burglary could be covered by other skills, but it would cover way more than what burglary does. The problem is, lockpicking can fit both skills, burglary and craftsmanship, but they come at it from entirely different angles. Yes, Burglary's trappings read pretty much like stunts on various other skills, but like I said above, so does lore in regards to scholarship. I would keep it just for the feel (you know, detectives and gangsters 'n' stuff), and (to come back to the topic) don't really see the need for a homemaking skill for pretty much the same reason. Even in the novels, it is mostly glossed over, and in the game, I don't think it is a skill that will get much use. You either gloss over the things that are covered, or you go into detail, but then you can take the original skills for that.

I might not be entirely coherent right now due to lack of sleep, so if anything up there is strange, I will gladly sort it out later.

There seems to be a double standard here to me.  Burglary should be kept because it's specific and flavorful enough to be worth redundancy, whereas Homemaker could be folded into other skills despite the fact that including it with other skills makes any such character vastly more knowledgeable about things that have nothing to do with what they would do (remember, Craftsmanship is the skill of making, fixing, and breaking with tools, which makes it the skill of carpentry, metal working, sewing, tanning, construction, plumbing, electrical, engineering, etc.)

Also, I don't agree that Scholarship matches the flavor of the Dresden Files particularly well.  Scholarship is such an absurdly wide skill that I wonder how someone could think that a chemist, a forensics specialist, a historian, a lawyer, and a computer programmer would ALL have the same skill at the same level, with only a few Stunts to differentiate them.  Performance has a similar issue, though not to the same degree.

Hence why I'm in favor of rolling together the more redundant skills (Survival, Burglary) and dividing the more broad knowledge (read: Assessment/Declaration) skills (Scholarship, Performance).  I think it moves the skills in a direction that makes them both more evenly balanced against each other, and allows more meaningful differentiation between characters. 

All of Weapons is using tools. So is some of Scholarship and most of Performance. Also all of Driving and of Guns. Just because it uses tools doesn't mean it's Craftsmanship.

The question you have to ask yourself when deciding what skill something should fall under is not "can I justify this as X", it's "should a character with Superb X be good at this". Your suggestions fail that test. Being a great detective should not imply an ability to survive in the wilderness.

If you're thinking of pointing out that Weapons lets you use all weapons and Scholarship lets you access all fields of science, you're missing the point. See, being generally competent academically or with weaponry makes sense. Most people have specializations (stunts) but the field as a whole is something that you can learn all at once.

Except Craftsmanship is SPECIFICALLY the skill of making, fixing, and breaking (generally the assumption of safely, but not always in the case of demolition) with tools.  Tools exist for everything, I'm not suggesting that a rock climber needs Craftsmanship to set up a belay or a chemist needs it to operate a bunsen burner.  I do, however, think that lockpicking is a very specified form of breaking a lock safely using small hand tools.  Your mileage obviously varies.

I don't actually think that Investigation is defined as the skill of being a detective.  It's the skill of observation and identification, which is vastly important to a detective, but not the only application of the skill.  What else is foraging but looking for and finding edible materials and shelter?

See previous point regarding Schoalrship.  I don't think computer programming and ancient history have much to do with each other at all.  I agree that computer science and advanced mathematics and physics and chemistry can all have easy links between each other, as well as languages and history and law all having easy links between each other...  but not across the ENTIRE field of scientific, medical, liberal arts, and law.  That, to me, seems absurd.

That's why I said "in large part."

Yes, you can use it for many different things, but the focus tends to be on getting out there and going on adventures in/with/around/against the supernatural community. Given that, I don't see how a dedicated homemaker would be much more than a flavor NPC. You could build a character around homemaking, but I don't really see how such a character would actively participate in a campaign enough to be a PC.

Every other skill, I look at it, and I can say, "Yes, you could make that your Superb skill and base a PC around it." Homemaking? Unless we're talking about Maid: The RPG, I don't think so.

Charity Carpenter is a stay-at-home mom who happens to be the wife of a Knight of the Cross, and a former sorceress.  When her child was abducted, she stormed the gates of Arctis Tor herself to get her back.  When her family was assaulted by fae assassins, she jumped in immediately with a nail gun after getting her family to safety.  And yet, no one would confuse her with a primary combatant or a supernatural character, nor do I thikn that anyone would doubt that she COULD BE a PC.  I really do think that her peak skill was Homemaking, with Fight and Intimidation coming behind.

A widowed grandfather has taken prodigious care of his home after his wife passed away, partly in her honor, partly because he enjoys the work and loves his children and grandchildren and rejoices in having them as company.  However, when a band of vampires snatches them away after a visit, his interest in the occult and old army buddies come in handy to track them down and get them back.  His home is his fortress, and he's not likely to ignore the supernatural threats in his city after having such a close personal brush with them himself.  Homemaking peak with Contacts and Lore and Guns as lower tier skills, among other action man type skills atrophied from his active days.

I can readily imagine a character whose main role in a game is to have a supernaturally airtight home base, the same way a character could have the main role of being the money man or being the guy who knows his way around the movers and shakers of the community.

My game is different than yours.  I really like the everyman, Feet In The Water sort of power level, with more or less normal people with normal interests and skills being forced to deal with the sudden influx of supernatural nonsense in their lives.  I think Waldo Butters has a lot to do with that.

[Mr. Death]

Charity Carpenter is a stay-at-home mom who happens to be the wife of a Knight of the Cross, and a former sorceress.  When her child was abducted, she stormed the gates of Arctis Tor herself to get her back.  When her family was assaulted by fae assassins, she jumped in immediately with a nail gun after getting her family to safety.  And yet, no one would confuse her with a primary combatant or a supernatural character, nor do I thikn that anyone would doubt that she COULD BE a PC.  I really do think that her peak skill was Homemaking, with Fight and Intimidation coming behind.

A widowed grandfather has taken prodigious care of his home after his wife passed away, partly in her honor, partly because he enjoys the work and loves his children and grandchildren and rejoices in having them as company.  However, when a band of vampires snatches them away after a visit, his interest in the occult and old army buddies come in handy to track them down and get them back.  His home is his fortress, and he's not likely to ignore the supernatural threats in his city after having such a close personal brush with them himself.  Homemaking peak with Contacts and Lore and Guns as lower tier skills, among other action man type skills atrophied from his active days.

I can readily imagine a character whose main role in a game is to have a supernaturally airtight home base, the same way a character could have the main role of being the money man or being the guy who knows his way around the movers and shakers of the community.

My game is different than yours.  I really like the everyman, Feet In The Water sort of power level, with more or less normal people with normal interests and skills being forced to deal with the sudden influx of supernatural nonsense in their lives.  I think Waldo Butters has a lot to do with that.

Charity Carpenter is potentially a viable PC because her top skills (Conviction, Weapons, as I recall) aren't limited to being useful within her own home, and her stay-at-home-mom-ness isn't her defining characteristic in a mechanical sense. She's still a homemaker, and it's a big part of her character, without having to reflect it in the stats. This is the sort of thing that Aspects are for--aspects will place limits on the flaws you see in Scholarship, and can bolster thresholds and the things you want this skill to cover.

In both your examples, the characters are viable PCs not because they're homemakers, but because they're a sparring partner to a Knight of the Cross (Weapons), and intensely faithful to the point of having superpowers (Conviction), or because he has knowledge, contacts, and can fight. In other words, the skills that come in handy during a scenario would be every skill other than Homemaking. In both cases, under your model, to actually go out and do anything to accomplish their goals, they'd have to leave the only place where their top skill matters.

[Haru]

There seems to be a double standard here to me.  Burglary should be kept because it's specific and flavorful enough to be worth redundancy, whereas Homemaker could be folded into other skills despite the fact that including it with other skills makes any such character vastly more knowledgeable about things that have nothing to do with what they would do (remember, Craftsmanship is the skill of making, fixing, and breaking with tools, which makes it the skill of carpentry, metal working, sewing, tanning, construction, plumbing, electrical, engineering, etc.)

Also, I don't agree that Scholarship matches the flavor of the Dresden Files particularly well.  Scholarship is such an absurdly wide skill that I wonder how someone could think that a chemist, a forensics specialist, a historian, a lawyer, and a computer programmer would ALL have the same skill at the same level, with only a few Stunts to differentiate them.  Performance has a similar issue, though not to the same degree.

Hence why I'm in favor of rolling together the more redundant skills (Survival, Burglary) and dividing the more broad knowledge (read: Assessment/Declaration) skills (Scholarship, Performance).  I think it moves the skills in a direction that makes them both more evenly balanced against each other, and allows more meaningful differentiation between characters. 

Yes there is a double standard, as there should be. The system has been created to reflect the vibe of the dresden files novels, not to reflect the real world. A lot of (bad) roleplaying systems are trying to to do exactly that and have skills for every possible job there is, with thousands of special rules for each of them. But that is not the focus of the dresden files.
The focus of the dresden files is mainly on hunting down bad guys, magic, mobsters, monsters and stuff like that. Which it does really good. Your academic speciality is only a very minor fact in the light of those things, which is why all of that is covered in "scholarship". The same goes for craftsmanship. A high skill there simply means "you are good at a trade", it doesn't specify which one, simply because it isn't really important. In cooperation with aspects, this becomes more interesting, because now you can compel on a field you are not good at or invoke on a field you are specialized in.

That's why you take driving if you know your way around town, even if you've never driven a car in your life. In the light of car chases and similar tropes, that is perfectly fine, there doesn't need to be a "navigation" skill.

Burglary is a skill reflecting the shady side, which is why I still like it, even if there are a lot of arguments against it. Survival, too, has its own merits.

Of course you can go another way, if you want to split skills up. But how, and where would you stop splitting? Would natural science be enough, or would you split it into physics, chemistry and biology? Would Law be enough, or would you divide it into subsections as well? Would math be a single skill (which you would need for natural sciences and a lot of others as well)? In my eyes, Scholarship is just to reflect a level of education, not the specifics, which is more than enough for all intents and purposes of the game.

[JoshTheValiant]

That's why you take driving if you know your way around town, even if you've never driven a car in your life. In the light of car chases and similar tropes, that is perfectly fine, there doesn't need to be a "navigation" skill.

Of course you can go another way, if you want to split skills up. But how, and where would you stop splitting? Would natural science be enough, or would you split it into physics, chemistry and biology? Would Law be enough, or would you divide it into subsections as well? Would math be a single skill (which you would need for natural sciences and a lot of others as well)? In my eyes, Scholarship is just to reflect a level of education, not the specifics, which is more than enough for all intents and purposes of the game.

Actually, the book itself suggests that if the character doesn't drive, you should use a different skill with that trapping, no stunt necessary.  So, there you go.

As far as dividing Scholarship, I opted for Academics/Science, in the Spirit of the Century precedent, contemplating divorcing technical science (electronics, programming, engineering, physics, etc., call this Science) from medical science (chemistry, biology, surgery, diagnosis, etc., call this Medicine).  I think Academics including history, law, language, literature and politics is probably sufficient.  I haven't thought of any problem subjects yet, though I'm sure I will eventually, and then I might reevaluate.

Also greatly tempted to divide Performance into Art for painting, sculpture, cooking, decorating, etc (material arts) and Performance for acting, singing, music, poetry, dance, juggling, etc. (performance arts).  Less convinced about this one, but it still appeals to me from a personal perspective.

The answer to "Where do you draw the line?" happens to be "where it feels right." 

[Sanctaphrax]

First up: read the sidebar on page 136. It will probably be useful to you.

Second up: lockpicking is not like breaking. Nothing ends up broken. This is kind of an important difference.

Third up: lockpicking is kind of a weird edge skill that most people will have never attempted in their lives. So it makes sense for it, like surgery, to be gated behind a stunt.

Fourth up: A high Scholarship rating is not what you use to represent skill at Greek History. That's what stunts are for. A high Scholarship skill means that you are highly intelligent and broadly educated/well-read. As a guy with decent Scholarship in real life, I can tell you that this is not unrealistic.

Which is what I was trying to get at earlier. Scholarship 5 includes everything that being intelligent and broadly educated would make you good at and nothing else. By the same token, Investigation covers everything that being perceptive and analytical would make you good at and nothing else. Finding food outdoors and preparing it so that you can live off of it and finding shelter and so on requires more than being perceptive and analytical.

Fifth up: posts like Haru's are what I was trying to head off with my reply to Mr. Death. Most of the successful DFRPG games I've seen do not fit the mold (s)he speaks of. (I'm thinking of Night Fears, Evil Acts, Forced To Fight, and Enduring The Apocalypse here.) And most of the failed games I've seen do fit that mold. (I'm not saying which, sorry.)

DFRPG is a good system to play mortal gangsters with. It's also a good system for a dungeon crawl, and it can handle a game of high-stakes corporate politics too.

Basically, I think that DFRPG is a pretty general system. It can cover almost anything with only a few hacks. So I don't understand or like the whole idea that it's a game about being Harry Dresden.

Though I suppose I could be misunderstanding what Haru means here.

[sinker]

More than anything I would argue that this skill is definitely setting appropriate. Think of the books that the game is based off of. Dresden regularly meets these characters, people who build refuges around them, who buy him a measure of peace and warmth so that he has positive reasons to fight (Charity, Forthill, even Molly and Murphy to an extent). Imagine what he would be like without them, brutal, without compassion, darker than he is even now. Now I'll admit that some of that is empathy and rapport, but some of it is other things, warm food, a place to rest, etc.

Whether or not it's mechanically necessary is going to vary from group to group, but I don't see any negative consequences to including it and because of that I don't see any reason to dissuade others from using it if they feel so compelled.