Author Topic: Need Help: True Shapeshifting  (Read 6689 times)

Offline GryMor

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2012, 06:03:07 AM »
Why would swapping out the power disable the items?

Mechanics: Your items have power because you are maintaing their power with item slots, as soon as those item slots go away, the item loses power and they don't come back till you hit a milestone that lets you select enchanted items.

Thematically: Enchanted Items and Foci are mystically tied to a particular practitioner and maintained by their magic, the loss of that magic disrupts them, requiring significant effort and time to re-attune.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2012, 01:00:39 PM »
Ok this is taken straight from YS:177
When making such a change, you may reallocate
some or all of your form points (see
above) to purchase new abilities, focusing
on those available as Creature Features
(page 162), certain Minor Abilities (page 169),
Speed (page 178), Strength (page 183), and
Toughness (page 184).

I would stick to this as close as possible with modulating abilities. In my game I made it Law. You cant access any other power group and it keeps things sane.

This has already been mentioned.  And the fact that it says "focusing on" rather than "limited to" is an important word choice.  "Focusing" isn't an exclusive word, but rather a refining word.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2012, 05:31:58 PM »
This has already been mentioned.  And the fact that it says "focusing on" rather than "limited to" is an important word choice.  "Focusing" isn't an exclusive word, but rather a refining word.

Exactly. I take it as a pretty firm guide, but I cannot deny that it is a word choice which could theoretically accommodate the points of view with which I disagree.

There is just so little guidance on the power, and it is easy to either take that bit as a rule, or go straight for that "focusing on" as a means to justify anything else.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 08:29:03 PM by devonapple »
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
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That I’m positive are not even mine"

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2012, 09:43:59 PM »
Mechanics: Your items have power because you are maintaing their power with item slots, as soon as those item slots go away, the item loses power and they don't come back till you hit a milestone that lets you select enchanted items.

Thematically: Enchanted Items and Foci are mystically tied to a particular practitioner and maintained by their magic, the loss of that magic disrupts them, requiring significant effort and time to re-attune.

This is a valid way to read things, but it's not the only valid way. The rulebook does not specify what happens.

Personally, I think it makes more sense for the items to stick around after the slots are lost. The items exist, and they only need maintenance occasionally.

If I was wearing Harry's duster when he died, would it suddenly become normal fabric?

On the other hand, your interpretation mitigates the broken-ness of Modular spellcasting.

As for what powers Modular Abilities can grant, it's almost certainly deliberately ambiguous. Standard DFRPG canon-writing procedure, it seems.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2012, 11:39:12 PM »
There is just so little guidance on the power, and it is easy to either take that bit as a rule, or go straight for that "focusing on" as a means to justify anything else.
As justification for what I think you're targeting, I actually prefer the reason you seem to have mentioned only in passing - some skills simply need to be learned.  It does add some limits on how you use those skills with NPCs but it's good flavor, adds an interesting fact to your world, and makes sense when applied consistently. 

This is a valid way to read things, but it's not the only valid way. The rulebook does not specify what happens.

Personally, I think it makes more sense for the items to stick around after the slots are lost. The items exist, and they only need maintenance occasionally.
Hmm, not sure I agree.  The book is fairly clear on items & foci taking up one or more slots.  If you don't have said item slots, how can you have working items?  It does create a small conundrum within the narrative context...which is solved by the "must be learned" caveat devonapple brought up.  Even if you don't apply that to evocation / thaumaturgy as a whole, I'm very tempted to apply it to item creation. 

Quote
If I was wearing Harry's duster when he died, would it suddenly become normal fabric?

On the other hand, your interpretation mitigates the broken-ness of Modular spellcasting.
Depends what made the fabric 'abnormal' to start with - was is a change to the material or simply an oft repeated mental exercise using the item as focus?  Even if it was a change to the material, do you know how to use it?  I kind of agree with your next statement - there's no canon answer.  But it is answerable...and either answer is justifiable.

Quote
As for what powers Modular Abilities can grant, it's almost certainly deliberately ambiguous. Standard DFRPG canon-writing procedure, it seems.
Yep.  Some days I like that, some days I don't.  Guess I'm almost as ambiguous...   ;)
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“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.”  - Albert Einstein

"Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength."  - Eric Hoffer

Offline devonapple

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 11:43:34 PM »
As justification for what I think you're targeting, I actually prefer the reason you seem to have mentioned only in passing - some skills simply need to be learned.  It does add some limits on how you use those skills with NPCs but it's good flavor, adds an interesting fact to your world, and makes sense when applied consistently. 

I'm glad that made sense.

Admittedly, I only mentioning it in passing because, as rationales go, I felt it was less about RAW and more about the spirit of the game, which I had perhaps dismissed.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline devonapple

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2012, 11:51:20 PM »
Is "Wizard" a race?  Or a matter of knowledge?  If you judge it the former, it may be possible.  Personally, I think it's the latter.  That said, changing into something like a phoenix may well get you abilities so close to fire evocation as to be indistinguishable.

One thing I forgot is that not all Fey get Glamours. though all Sidhe seem to.

I interpret Sidhe as a prestige class or template - whether by evolution, power consolidation, or promotion is left unclear - which provides certain advantages common to all noble Fey. But I don't think Sidhe can really be considered a separate race. More like a rank. And as rank is bestowed somehow, I think that places more skilled magic use like Sponsored Magic and Glamours firmly as a learned or bestowed power, and not something one could replicate without stealing it from the entity in question.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2012, 12:26:58 AM »
You clearly need slots to create and maintain items. But what happens when the slots disappear is not addressed by the rules.

But I don't see why the problem should arise. Modular spellcasting is a bad idea anyway.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2012, 12:37:00 AM »
But I don't see why the problem should arise. Modular spellcasting is a bad idea anyway.

Agreed.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Becq

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2012, 01:00:29 AM »
I interpret Sidhe as a prestige class or template - whether by evolution, power consolidation, or promotion is left unclear - which provides certain advantages common to all noble Fey. But I don't think Sidhe can really be considered a separate race. More like a rank. And as rank is bestowed somehow, I think that places more skilled magic use like Sponsored Magic and Glamours firmly as a learned or bestowed power, and not something one could replicate without stealing it from the entity in question.

WoJ confirms that Fae (or at least pixies and Sidhe) are different 'stages' of the same race; that lesser Fae develop into Sidhe (they gain levels!!!):

Quote from: WoJ
#150 Is Toot-toot’s increase in size due to his actions, or the title and followers he has acquired doing Harry’s bidding?
It’s due to /Harry’s/ actions, mostly. Toot done hitched his star to Harry’s wagon. As a result, he’s taken actions he never would have taken on his own, some of which had major consequences. Toot has effectively become a much more powerful being than he was as an independent dewdrop faerie. The physical growth is a reflection of that fact.
I mean gosh, where do you think the Sidhe came from in the first place?
Quote from: WoJ
With all the things Toot Toot and the Za Lord's guard have done that made a difference, and with Toot getting bigger, is that going to upset the balance in the Summer court?
The answer is no, because they are not Summer anyway, they are wildfae.  And everybody over in summer is going to blame Harry for everything they do.  They regard them as a tool and Harry is the guy holding it.  Harry would tell you that he's probably the tool but...  Anyway Toot Toot's been growing because that's where the Sidhe came from to begin with.  They weren't always all tall and glamorous, they kind of got that way.
 
So it's not exactly a rank that's bestowed (though how others treat you seems to play a role) or a state of evolution (unless you consider an individual transitioning over their existence from pixie to Sidhe as 'evolution').  I would imagine it has something to do with the accumulation of reputation, measures either by followers (Harry sets Toot-Toot up as his leutenant, other Pixies join up as followers, so Toot-Toot gains power) or history of favors earned/owed/repaid/etc (that is, each time the Fae gains or loses a favor, or repays or is repaid a favor, he grows in power).  But that's speculation on my part.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2012, 01:07:41 AM »
WoJ confirms that Fae (or at least pixies and Sidhe) are different 'stages' of the same race; that lesser Fae develop into Sidhe (they gain levels!!!):
 
So it's not exactly a rank that's bestowed (though how others treat you seems to play a role) or a state of evolution (unless you consider an individual transitioning over their existence from pixie to Sidhe as 'evolution').  I would imagine it has something to do with the accumulation of reputation, measures either by followers (Harry sets Toot-Toot up as his leutenant, other Pixies join up as followers, so Toot-Toot gains power) or history of favors earned/owed/repaid/etc (that is, each time the Fae gains or loses a favor, or repays or is repaid a favor, he grows in power).  But that's speculation on my part.

Thank you for finding and reaffirming that bit.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline devonapple

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Re: Need Help: True Shapeshifting
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2012, 08:05:19 PM »
Mechanics: Your items have power because you are maintaing their power with item slots, as soon as those item slots go away, the item loses power and they don't come back till you hit a milestone that lets you select enchanted items.

Thematically: Enchanted Items and Foci are mystically tied to a particular practitioner and maintained by their magic, the loss of that magic disrupts them, requiring significant effort and time to re-attune.

My apologies, but I just remembered a canon justification for this:

(click to show/hide)
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets