Need help figuring out a spell

[Logan01X]

My group hasn't played Dresden Files for a while, but we're going to be starting up a new game and i need some help figuring out a spell that might come in handy, so i'd appreciate anyone's input on how to pull this one off.

Basically, I'm looking to create a spell that can teleport something to my hand. If you've read any of Simon R. Green's Nightside series, I want to make John Taylor's bullet trick. Say someone is pointing a gun at me, and i raise my hand and i have the bullets from their gun.

How should this work, evocation or thaumaturgy? Should it be a maneuver putting an aspect on someone or what?

[sinker]

Hmm, something as subtle as that would probably be thaumaturgy, but it would be silly to do an involved ritual every time you wanted to do that. And yeah, Mechanically I'd deal with it as a maneuver + tag for effect.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not sure a spell like that is even possible with Evocation in Dresden. You'd be better off just hexing the gun, I think.

[UmbraLux]

How should this work, evocation or thaumaturgy? Should it be a maneuver putting an aspect on someone or what?

Easiest to simply use it as a trapping for intentional hexing. 

[Orladdin]

Easiest to simply use it as a trapping for intentional hexing.

Yeah, treat it as a different flavor of hexing.  Evocation, difficulty based on the hexing table in YS, instead of ruining the weapon, you simply apply the "Unloaded" aspect to it and acquire its ammunition.

Seems fair to me.

[devonapple]

As others have indicated, teleporting with finesse just isn't canon. One could invoke the "Harry as unreliable narrator" argument, but the game setting and its rules - which do purport to reflect the DresdenVerse as it is and not just Dresden's impression of it - also establish that teleportation is incredibly hard. I would presume that skilled teleportation is even harder. That said, it is primarily hard because the RAW insist that you count each zone (and its zone border value, if any) as an increase on the difficulty. So long distance teleportation is MASSIVELY difficult.

Short range teleportation, however, seems within the bounds of reason. Even so, this seems like a really complicated example of it, more complicated than Evocation would allow. I wouldn't blame the GM for not allowing it at all, and I certainly wouldn't, not with Evocation. I'd allow it as a Thaumaturgical effect, something you can do a limited number of times per day, requiring preparation (so Thaumaturgy, or an Enchanted Item).

But, if your GM thinks it is fair game to do this as Evocation, then here is how I would do it (and these are appropriate Thaumaturgical routes as well).

The example of actual get-somewhere teleportation in the RAW was Harry's potion, which worked as an Enchanted Item (potion) providing a one-time Thaumaturgical substitute for an Athletics roll, working on the premise that the end effect was going to be movement: how hard should it be to move away from point A to point B with a normal Athletics roll? Or how far can you get with a particular Athletics score of 6 (for example)?

So in this case, the end effect is going to be... the person not hitting you with a bullet, right?
You could model that one of two ways, as I see it:
1) a simple Evocation Block, either a) protecting you, or b) on the opponent, Blocking the Guns skill (though he could overpower the Block and a little would get through)
2) an Evocation Maneuver, placing the equivalent of Disarmed (folks mentioned other good Aspects, too) on the opponent, which you would then Invoke to prevent them from attacking for a round or more, depending on your GM's narrative preference.

[sinker]

1) a simple Evocation Block, either a) protecting you, or b) on the opponent, Blocking the Guns skill (though he could overpower the Block and a little would get through)

This seems thematically odd to me. So the fact that he doesn't have any bullets reduces the effectiveness of him shooting you, but doesn't prevent it if he is particularly skilled (or lucky)?

[Mr. Death]

This seems thematically odd to me. So the fact that he doesn't have any bullets reduces the effectiveness of him shooting you, but doesn't prevent it if he is particularly skilled (or lucky)?

You could handwave breaking the block as him being able to quickly reload. Say it's a block of 4, and he rolls a 5 in Guns--it implies that he was able to realize the weight in the gun changed before he tried to fire, and reloaded, but used up so much time and effort on those actions that his shot's rushed and he's way off.

[devonapple]

This seems thematically odd to me. So the fact that he doesn't have any bullets reduces the effectiveness of him shooting you, but doesn't prevent it if he is particularly skilled (or lucky)?

If the opponent is fast enough, maybe he gets a shot off before the spellcaster can snatch the bullet? Or, if it's an automatic weapon, maybe the spellcaster doesn't snatch enough bullets to prevent the attack completely? Or Mr. Death's suggestion.

Ultimately, it's just a suggestion, for a problematic and likely anti-canonical spell effect. Since stress does not directly equal actual damage, I feel that one can be a little wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey about the resolution of attacks.

[devonapple]

Yeah, treat it as a different flavor of hexing.  Evocation, difficulty based on the hexing table in YS, instead of ruining the weapon, you simply apply the "Unloaded" aspect to it and acquire its ammunition.

Seems fair to me.

I am conflicted on this application. Here are my observations:
The gun still works (slight minus for the caster, if the opponent can reload)
The caster now has ammunition (plus for the caster, double plus if the caster or allies need it)
This costs no stress (big plus for the caster)
This uses a sledgehammer effect (hexing) to replicate a very precise effect (disarming via teleport)

I feel this is too much to handwave as a trapping of hexing.

[Sanctaphrax]

Thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation is what you want here. I suggest you get Sponsored Magic.

Evocation can maneuver, but not this subtly.

[UmbraLux]

This costs no stress (big plus for the caster)

It will cost stress for most guns...unless Conviction is raised to 6 or better.

More importantly to me, it's an easy trapping change.  Hexing the gun, for the same cost, is actually more beneficial to the player.  If they want to trade permanent damage for a cool trapping - I see a win/win situation. 

[Wyrdrune]

Thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation is what you want here. I suggest you get Sponsored Magic.

Evocation can maneuver, but not this subtly.

I would also solve that via Sponsored Magic. Maybe some Magic linked to a thief or trickster entity.

[Orladdin]

...
This costs no stress (big plus for the caster)
...

Sure it costs stress.  It's still an evocation.

More importantly to me, it's an easy trapping change.  Hexing the gun, for the same cost, is actually more beneficial to the player.  If they want to trade permanent damage for a cool trapping - I see a win/win situation. 

This is how I saw it.  The end-result is generally less beneficial for the same cost (or greater cost if intentional hexing doesn't cause stress (I can't recall)-- I was considering my version a straight-up evocation, which would.)

As others have indicated, teleporting with finesse just isn't canon. One could invoke the "Harry as unreliable narrator" argument, but the game setting and its rules - which do purport to reflect the DresdenVerse as it is and not just Dresden's impression of it - also establish that teleportation is incredibly hard. I would presume that skilled teleportation is even harder. That said, it is primarily hard because the RAW insist that you count each zone (and its zone border value, if any) as an increase on the difficulty. So long distance teleportation is MASSIVELY difficult...

Yeah, teleportation is massively difficult.  Difficult to the point where it's just generally less beneficial than actually walking/driving/flying somewhere.  The DV just flavors teleportation in unique ways.  Harry's potion is the perfect example of a non-D&D, non-Potter teleportation that's small enough to fit in a bottle.

So, that kinda sets in stone that it can be done.


I do see where you're coming from on one of your above complaints, though, everyone: is this something you can do with Evocation, or does it require Thaum?  I could see a Thaum requirement for this just for thematic sake; but I'm not convinced.

[sinker]

Sure it costs stress.  It's still an evocation.

This was my initial reaction too, so I went and looked it up. Intentional Hexing is free so long as the shifts are equal or less than the caster's conviction.