On the Utter Drek we write and Show verus Tell

[The Deposed King]

I think Panesgrey or MickyFinn are who you want to ask, if you're talking about a permanent thread.

I think I have one or two more links around here somewhere.

Have you seen either of these already?


http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/4217.html
http://bar.baen.com/categories.aspx?catid=48.


The one if from Jim Butcher himself and as such when looking into these kinds of things, ecouragement, advice, etc nothing speaks better to the subject than the man himself.

The other is the Baen publisher, baen's bar site.  You might need to sign up but basically they tell you what they are looking for in a manuscript.

If you've already seen them sorry.  But since you seemed to be asking...


The Deposed King

[synthesis]

Just out of curiosity, do you think that a person can have too much dialogue?  Somehow, with the project I'm working on, the dialogue is flowing.  The description and passages in between, not so much, but I know I can go back to that.  However, I am very heavy on the dialogue and wondering if that is going to be a problem.  That and trying to figure out why dialogue is coming so easy.

[Paynesgrey]

I'll ask Mickey about putting up a sticky.  I don't have those permissions outside The Bar as I'm just a bottom tier worker bee. 

[The Deposed King]

Just out of curiosity, do you think that a person can have too much dialogue?  Somehow, with the project I'm working on, the dialogue is flowing.  The description and passages in between, not so much, but I know I can go back to that.  However, I am very heavy on the dialogue and wondering if that is going to be a problem.  That and trying to figure out why dialogue is coming so easy.

I say the more dialogue the better.  But I suppose its like anything else.  too much of a good thing...

IMO - put in all teh dialogue you can, if that's what's flowing.  If there isn't enough descriptors and scenery you can always add it later in the edit.  The most important thing is to stay on a roll.  One good description of a thing is often enough.  One of the complaints I've heard from readers is how there isn't enough happening.  Too much looking at some clock on the wall that has absolutely no impact on the story.

So go with what works for you.  You can always chop it later after you have something to show the beta's.



The Deposed King

[synthesis]

Thanks for that, Deposed.  I think I've discovered another detrimental "thing" toward writing--when you start reading books more analytically and looking at what other authors do vs. what you do.  I'm sort of wondering if it's possible to read the genre you're writing while you're writing.

[The Deposed King]

Thanks for that, Deposed.  I think I've discovered another detrimental "thing" toward writing--when you start reading books more analytically and looking at what other authors do vs. what you do.  I'm sort of wondering if it's possible to read the genre you're writing while you're writing.

I think it is.  But you have to be careful about it.  Otherwise your probably better off not reading until you get to a point you're happy with.

That said I think its really a case by case basis.  But that could just be me.  I do know that its more fun in the short term to read a book in the genre your interested in than it is to strain the brain putting words to processor.

I mean even if its just as fun.  I can nail a whole book in one sitting if I have the time, but in a day the most I can write is 5K.  Which is like 1/24th of what I can read in the same time frame.  So the fun factor can throw you off, getting 24 times the product.

Just persevere I know you can do it, synthesis.


Don't let anyone get you down, not even yourself and I really honestly mean that.


The Deposed King

[OZ]

Very helpful links. My tendency to want perfection in my first draft is the single greatest thing that I wrestle with in my writing. Thank you for the link.

[synthesis]

Okay, so I've decided my mind is the problem   Just need a shut off switch somewhere.  I listen to audiobooks on my way to and from work and keep finding myself drifting into my own little world!

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Thanks for that, Deposed.  I think I've discovered another detrimental "thing" toward writing--when you start reading books more analytically and looking at what other authors do vs. what you do.

I don't know that that's necessarily detrimental; it can be extremely educational.

[Lord Rae]

I'm definitely guilty of not letting myself writing crap. Well I write lots and lots of crap and then immediately change it over and over....and then over some more.

[The Deposed King]

I'm definitely guilty of not letting myself writing crap. Well I write lots and lots of crap and then immediately change it over and over....and then over some more.

You have to have enough of a foundation that you know where you're going with your story, plus you need to explain it to the reader.  But after 5 or 10% of your work you just have to cut loose.  If I stopped and fixed everything as I went I wouldn't have finished Admiral Who?.  I wrote half a book my Military Insect work, then peetered out.  So write write write.  Don't go back and re-re-re-do, IMO.

So go for it and pump out that volume!



The Deposed King

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

You have to have enough of a foundation that you know where you're going with your story, plus you need to explain it to the reader.  But after 5 or 10% of your work you just have to cut loose.  If I stopped and fixed everything as I went I wouldn't have finished Admiral Who?.  I wrote half a book my Military Insect work, then peetered out.  So write write write.  Don't go back and re-re-re-do, IMO.

Depends on your pattern.  I'm a counterexample, here; if something is wrong with a book I am two-thirds of the way through, trying to push through to the end rather than go back and fix it kills it.  Everybody's approach is different; so long as you are generating a finished thing at the end, any way of getting there that works is valid. (I have seven novels finished over the past fifteen years, and a number of others still being worked on, including one 450kword manuscript where it's only the end I am tweaking so that would probably practically count as a trilogy with two volumes finished.)

[The Deposed King]

Depends on your pattern.  I'm a counterexample, here; if something is wrong with a book I am two-thirds of the way through, trying to push through to the end rather than go back and fix it kills it.  Everybody's approach is different; so long as you are generating a finished thing at the end, any way of getting there that works is valid. (I have seven novels finished over the past fifteen years, and a number of others still being worked on, including one 450kword manuscript where it's only the end I am tweaking so that would probably practically count as a trilogy with two volumes finished.)

If it works don't 'fix' it.  I just wouldn't stop pumping out product.  Momentum has a way of pushing you over the finish line.

I can almost attest to that 15 year thing.  I've spent about 7 on one book and am half way through.  I'll finish it eventually.  On the other hand.  I wrote over 80% of Admiral Who? and finished the first draft, all in one month.

I just question how many of us will stick it out for the better part or excess of a decade and thus I'm shipping for the gut through it and never go back.  Create now, edit later.

But Neurovere is very much correct.  There are different models and no one side fits all.  Although I do tend to believe that everyone wants to hesitate and take it slow, when they should instead jump in with both feet.  I include myself in that assessment.



Just don't let anyone stop you not even yourself, and remember to always follow the dream,


The Deposed King

[Paynesgrey]

If it works don't 'fix' it.  I just wouldn't stop pumping out product.  Momentum has a way of pushing you over the finish line.

I can almost attest to that 15 year thing.  I've spent about 7 on one book and am half way through.  I'll finish it eventually.  On the other hand.  I wrote over 80% of Admiral Who? and finished the first draft, all in one month.

I just question how many of us will stick it out for the better part or excess of a decade and thus I'm shipping for the gut through it and never go back.  Create now, edit later.

But Neurovere is very much correct.  There are different models and no one side fits all.  Although I do tend to believe that everyone wants to hesitate and take it slow, when they should instead jump in with both feet.  I include myself in that assessment.



Just don't let anyone stop you not even yourself, and remember to always follow the dream,


The Deposed King

If there's one thing that drives me up the wall, it's that every time I re-read the stuff that I've worked on after 4 or 5 betas chew it over, I am constantly finding the odd word or phrase here or there to polish.  A slight twist that clarifies things, or just makes a line sing rather than talk.  Part of the learning process, I realize, but it still bugs me.  ;0

[The Deposed King]

If there's one thing that drives me up the wall, it's that every time I re-read the stuff that I've worked on after 4 or 5 betas chew it over, I am constantly finding the odd word or phrase here or there to polish.  A slight twist that clarifies things, or just makes a line sing rather than talk.  Part of the learning process, I realize, but it still bugs me.  ;0

The create and edit hats are different beasts IMO.

Beta's are awesome for the editing hat.  And when its time to edit, you've got to go at it with tong and hammer.

Just for me personally.  I know that if I do very much editing, I slow down to a halt on the creation front.

Beta's are vital for putting out a product you can be proud of.  You just have to make sure you're ready for them.  Its a balancing act between the desire to put it out and get feedback and maintaining forward momentum.  I hope others are better about this than I am. 





The Deposed King