Opening a way into the Nevernever

[JediDresden]

I know it's thaumaturgy, but how many shifts does it take for a wizard to open a way?  I know there are weaker spots that Harry uses and probably ones that are not so easy to crossover in.  I am guessing 4 shifts for an easy spot and up from there. Probably lore checks to determine where the weak spots are too.  Or am I way off?

[UmbraLux]

Don't think there's anything official.  Personally, I'd put it at ~10 shifts to cross at some random location.  The more affinity a place has for the other side, the easier it would be.  i.e. Stonehenge might only require 2-4 shifts.

[sinker]

It's totally a difficulty determined by the GM based on how hard they think it would be. Here's  what Your Story says about the difficulty:

Typically, the strength of the barrier between
the Nevernever and our world is Superb (or
better)—evidence to the contrary, things from
the other side don’t leak through to our world
every day. At least, not in general, not in most
places.
But our world (and the Nevernever) is rife
with soft spots, places where the barrier is
thinner and weaker. In these places, many supernatural
creatures can cross into and out of the
Nevernever as a casual effort—as simply as you
might walk from one room to the next—so long
as the place has a strong affinity for the creature
in question (plenty of White Court vampires
use strip clubs and the like). These places are
home to such soft spots—as are places where
ways have been opened frequently or recently—
dropping the strength of the barrier to Great,
Good, or even below. The overall barrier ebbs
and flows as well; while the default strength is
typically Superb, it can sometimes be weakened
overall, as seen in the Grave Peril casefile.
Some cities—such as Las Vegas—simply have a
weak barrier no matter where you go.

[vultur]

I don't think it's actually ever stated in the books, but I tend to assume that that Superb (or whatever, based on thinner barrier etc.) difficulty probably doesn't get you very fine control over where you end up - but with a better roll you can pick spots more easily (there'd still need to be an association with the mortal-world location you're opening the portal from - but you might be able to choose among the possible linkages).

[InFerrumVeritas]

I don't think it's actually ever stated in the books, but I tend to assume that that Superb (or whatever, based on thinner barrier etc.) difficulty probably doesn't get you very fine control over where you end up - but with a better roll you can pick spots more easily (there'd still need to be an association with the mortal-world location you're opening the portal from - but you might be able to choose among the possible linkages).

I treat control of where you end up as purely a matter of declarations.  I don't think Thaum lets you choose, just like it doesn't let you choose which room you walk into when you walk into a door.  Lore/Scholarship/Empathy declarations about affinity, history, or mood are all required to make declarations about where you'll go.  I use the strength of that roll to determine how accurate you are.

For Worldwalking, I use a base strength of Superb+1 per each exchange they want to door to stay open+1 per each person they INTEND to go through.  Increasing the size of the door is +2 to accommodate a vehicle sized object, +4 to accommodate truck sized object, etc.  Certain forces from either side can oppose these rolls and add difficulty. 

If it's used as a transportation method to other parts of the mundane world, I'm working on an accuracy chart, but if it's used to get to the Nevernever, I use the above.  I'm thinking something like +2 to get to a specific continent, +4 to get to a specific country, +6 to get to a specific city, +8 to get to a specific neighborhood, +10 to get to a specific building.  +12 to get to a specific room within a building.

I would also try to have a degree of travel safety...but now sure how to work that out.  Instead, I just compel and make them deal.  Again, the second method is for when it isn't used as a plot focused element, rather just a means of transportation.

[Orladdin]

My interpretation from the novels is that at any given time, a place in the real world connects to only a single place in the NN (a 1:1 mapping) and where that connection opens to is based solely on the shared qualities of the area in question.  While places can remap over time, it's not an at-will sort of thing for the wizard. 
For example, Let's say I have a closet that I store all my scuba gear and parts for my fish tank in.  Let's say it's previously established that the Way opened in this closet leads to an aquatic garden in the NN.  As a wizard, I can't choose to open the Way in my closet to the summer court meeting hall when yesterday it opened to an aquatic garden.  In order to change this mapping, I would have to change the very nature of my closet for a long period of time and hope for a remap to happen naturally. 

Granted, you could handle a remap through declarations, but at that point it is out of the character's hands and into the player/GM's hands.

[polkaneverdies]

Your view would seem to be supported by the recent novels where location is the big concern. (FBI to hunting store, alley way to winter, etc.)

Iirc it clashes with the White Knight. I am fairly certain that Dresden actually says that even if cowl opens a gate in the exact same spot as him it will go to a different place.

[Orladdin]

Your view would seem to be supported by the recent novels where location is the big concern. (FBI to hunting store, alley way to winter, etc.)

Iirc it clashes with the White Knight. I am fairly certain that Dresden actually says that even if cowl opens a gate in the exact same spot as him it will go to a different place.

... yeah... y'know, I do vaguely remember something like that.  I wonder if this has been officially JB-retconned, or if there's more to it than we've had spelled out thusfar.

[admiralducksauce]

I figured that the caster's worldview affected the relationship in some way as well.  Harry's "world map" is different from Cowl's, although they can (mostly) consistently refer to their own maps.

[Orladdin]

I figured that the caster's worldview affected the relationship in some way as well.  Harry's "world map" is different from Cowl's, although they can (mostly) consistently refer to their own maps.

If that's the case, though, then what of

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Maggie's Gem Journal?

  And what about

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The Way to Edinburgh?

  If one person's map isn't the same as someone elses, these could not exist.

[JediDresden]

I really just need it for travel, in an upcoming adventure I need to get the group from Hawaii to where the wizard in the party grew up outside of New Orleans.  I as just going to gloss over it and get them quick through a montage like in Changes.  But I also thought it would be fun to explore the NN a little on the way.  I read an entry about Ogreball, or something like that, which would be totally cool for the party to explore.  I thought of 2 or 3 little hops to get there.

[mithrandirthewhite]

If that's the case, though, then what of

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  And what about

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  If one person's map isn't the same as someone elses, these could not exist

But if your told that something will work this way by someone, and you have know way to disprove it, then since magic is worked by belif as well as everything else they would work.

[Orladdin]

But if your told that something will work this way by someone, and you have know way to disprove it, then since magic is worked by belif as well as everything else they would work.

I don't know...  that sounds a little too much like a three-shell game to me.

Say I don't know where a Way opened in the beer cooler of the super-market goes, but I personally feel it's the coldest damn place on earth and it must go somewhere deep in Winter.  I open it and sure enough, it's a mile outside the walls of Arctis Tor. 

Next week someone else tells me that if I'm trying to get to the court of Baccus, all I have to do is open a Way in the very same supermarket beer cooler.  Which is it, now?  On the one hand, I know from personal experience that it goes to Arctis Tor but, on the other, I have a credible source telling me it goes to the Baccic Court on Olympus or something.

It needs to be one way or the other, IMHO.

[Mr. Death]

Magic is powered by belief, yes. That doesn't mean that the Nevernever's geography is that strongly affected by the beliefs of an individual. It's collective belief that would define things.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Ditto for the 1-1 mapping thing.  And the collective belief interpretation.

I guess I see magic primarily based on Will and Intent, and the belief that you can achieve the results you want.  That being said, I see Opening a Door to the Nevernever as different than Opening a Door to This Spot in the Nevernever.  Your belief and spell are about opening the door.  Where that door goes is out of your hands (which is why you have to select the spot carefully).