Romero-Style Zombies

[Becq]

What if you did a heavily hacked version of Toughness for them?

At baseline, Toughness grants 2 stress boxes and 1 armor.  You don't want the armor, because you want them to take damage fairly easy.  And stress isn't quite right, because you want the damage inflicted to be reflected by consequences (like lost limbs and such).

So, here's an idea for the revamped power:

Zombie Toughness [-3]
Description: You have all sorts of flesh that you can (un)live without.  Losing those unimportant bits (like arms and legs and guts) doesn't really slow you down ... much.
Just a "flesh" wound!  You gain an additional consequences to the tune of two milds and one moderate physical.  You may only make use of them if they are the last consequences available.
The Catch [+2] is your head.  Whether or not your braaains are your key feature, your head is, alas, the one part of your body you can't live without.  Your "Zombie Toughness" consequences con't be used to reduce the stress of a head shot.

Thoughts on useage and balance:

• A baseline stunt is allowed "one or two" mild consequences, leaning toward one if the effect is broad.  This is a broad application, but (a) options are slightly limited by requiring them to be taken last, and (b) powers are allowed to have a bit of an edge over stunts, so I think that upgrading one of the milds to a moderate is justified.
• Yes, I'm aware that The Catch might easily be priced higher, allowing for a stronger power for the same net refresh.  Feel free to fiddle with this if you want a stronger zombie.
• I'm sure there are several ways to deal with head shots; the simple way would be to allow any invocation of an accuracy-related aspect to be narrated as being an attack to the head.  This would still allow for the +2 bonus in addition to satisfying The Catch; another option would be to require an "invoke-for-effect" for the attack to count against The Catch.
• The "bonus consequences must be taken last" rule is there to make head shots useful.  If the bonus consequences are used up against initial 'wearing-down' attacks, then the fact that head shots ignore them is wasted.
• If you want more one-shot-to-the-head zombie kills, then it would be best to combine this stunt with allowing the zombie few if any basic consequences.  Any consequences not tied to this power make head shots less likely to be fatal, so only fairly powerful head shots will take down the zombie without softening it up a bit first.
  
• If you want a zombies that require more softening-up or multiple head shots, then add in extra 'general-use' consequences (like the No Pain, No gain stunt).

[Mr. Death]

Ooh, I like that one. That'd be a good way to throw a singular, tougher zombie at them, something they'd have to land several solid hits on before it went down (barring a headshot).

I think for the mobs, though, the standard set of consequences (maybe the extra one for No Pain, No Gain), should do the trick. If they concentrate their fire on one zombie, sure, it'll be easy to hit one for Severe consequence-level damage and knock it more or less out of the fight in one or two shots, but if I can encourage them to make spray attacks through sheer numbers, it should give each individual zombie some longevity.

[Becq]

Actually, I think it might work well for both zombie mooks and zombie 'bosses' by combining it with the ideas in the 'Types of Opposition' section on YS327.  So you end up with (assuming that the zombie template includes Zombie Toughness and No Pain, No Gain):

• Crunch-All-You-Want-We'll-Make-More Zombie: Zombie template + Nameless NPC.  Consequences: mild (mild mild moderate).  Assuming Endurace 0, taken out by a 5-stress head shot or 13-14 non-head stress.
• Strong Zombie: Zombie template + Supporting NPC.  Consequences: mild mild moderate (mild mild moderate).  A head shot of 11 stress would do it (possibly requiring some softening), or 19-20 stress worth of non-head hits.
• Oh-My-God: Zombie template + Main NPC.  Consequences: mild mild moderate serious extreme (mild mild moderate).  A one-shot kill would require at least a 25-stress head shot, making it unlikely unless your name is Kincaid.

Of course, the bigger zombies might well have additional powers/stunts and higher skills, making them even nastier (possibly including a buffer version of the Zombie Toughness power and or Inhuman Toughness).  Bumping the Endurance up to 1 (or higher) can also add to staying power.  If some of the mid-to-high-grade zombies happen to have been former cops, then they might still be wearing ballistic vests.

[Sanctaphrax]

I like the negative Endurance idea best, since it's elegant. But YMMV.

Does Zombie Toughness cost -3 before or after The Catch?

Given how effective consequence tags are, even a Main NPC zombie ought to be fairly fragile.

Giving Zombies any Athletics skill at all means that many people will have been made faster by death. And that seems wrong.

[Silverblaze]

Umbra Lux - "steal" away.

GM fiat covers lack of stresses or all stresses just fine.  Romero Zombies don't need no stinkin' riles.

I agree zombies should have 0 athletics or less.  Athletics also covers how many zones they can run.  Shambler style zombies don't run and bump into stuff all the time.

If we want faster "28 days later infected" that is entirely different.

People should design the left 4 dead and dead island zombies too.  Gives those necromancers more to play with.

[Becq]

Does Zombie Toughness cost -3 before or after The Catch?

It would be -3 before the Catch, -1 net cost.  Of course, it can be scaled upward or downward by adding or removing consequences.  Point for point it's a bit better than No Pain, No Gain, but I think that's ok.  I think I would hesitate to recommend this for a PC, though, and without the fairly easy-to-bypass Catch it might well be OP.

[Mr. Death]

Giving Zombies any Athletics skill at all means that many people will have been made faster by death. And that seems wrong.

You could say the same about the other stats, though, especially Might. I see what you're saying, but call it a thematic decision: To me, part of the effectiveness of zombies as a horror creature is that they're always coming. They spot you, they're going to shamble at you inexorably, so I wanted it to be that the majority of rolls for movement would have the zombie going forward to ratchet up the tension. If it's 0, then half the time the zombies will either not be moving, or falling over themselves.

Might it work better as a stunt? Give them 0 Athletics, but a stunt where their movement speed jumps by 1 or 2 when they detect prey?

Actually, I think it might work well for both zombie mooks and zombie 'bosses' by combining it with the ideas in the 'Types of Opposition' section on YS327.  So you end up with (assuming that the zombie template includes Zombie Toughness and No Pain, No Gain):

• Crunch-All-You-Want-We'll-Make-More Zombie: Zombie template + Nameless NPC.  Consequences: mild (mild mild moderate).  Assuming Endurace 0, taken out by a 5-stress head shot or 13-14 non-head stress.
• Strong Zombie: Zombie template + Supporting NPC.  Consequences: mild mild moderate (mild mild moderate).  A head shot of 11 stress would do it (possibly requiring some softening), or 19-20 stress worth of non-head hits.
• Oh-My-God: Zombie template + Main NPC.  Consequences: mild mild moderate serious extreme (mild mild moderate).  A one-shot kill would require at least a 25-stress head shot, making it unlikely unless your name is Kincaid.

Of course, the bigger zombies might well have additional powers/stunts and higher skills, making them even nastier (possibly including a buffer version of the Zombie Toughness power and or Inhuman Toughness).  Bumping the Endurance up to 1 (or higher) can also add to staying power.  If some of the mid-to-high-grade zombies happen to have been former cops, then they might still be wearing ballistic vests.

I like the idea of adding Zombie Toughness to the template, but I'm not sure about the Strong and Oh-My-God templates. I don't want the headshot thing to be purely brute force/math--needing 5 stress makes it way too easy (especially with no Athletics score), and 25 stress is way too much.

[UmbraLux]

You could say the same about the other stats, though, especially Might. I see what you're saying, but call it a thematic decision: To me, part of the effectiveness of zombies as a horror creature is that they're always coming. They spot you, they're going to shamble at you inexorably, so I wanted it to be that the majority of rolls for movement would have the zombie going forward to ratchet up the tension. If it's 0, then half the time the zombies will either not be moving, or falling over themselves.

Another option if going with a negative Endurance - they can move faster / through obstacles if they wish but doing doing so requires an Endurance test against the obstacle / speed with any shifts they don't make being taken as stress & causing consequences.

It gives you the picture of a zombie dragging itself through a broken window to get at you...and leaving a trail of its own entrails in its wake.  Or the zombie who makes a sudden lunge across the room to grab you...and you hear its own bones snapping as it does.

[TheMouse]

For some inspiration on a good scenario for zombies, I highly suggest the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode Dead Man's Party. Lots of dumb, shambling zombies. Magical mask. Built in end-boss. It's great for a zombie situation.

As for rules, instead of stress, give them a threshold you need to overcome. If you don't cause 3 stress in one hit, you do surface damage that isn't even worth tracking. You either do enough to take the thing out, or you do nothing. Of course, that's past whatever armour rating you decide to give them from toughness.

[Silverblaze]

For a horde of zombies rolling athletics for all of them will be a chore anyway.

Just like the concept of GM fiat: 10 stresses or no stresses... 

Just say they can always manage one zone as long as they aren't impeded by terrain, then they get slower.  I mean even at a 0 athletics some of the horde should move ahead every round.

The suggested stunt: bonus athletics for the purposes of movement once prey is detected may work better.

[Blackblade]

You could also stat the hoard (or a section of the hoard) as one "creature."  Give it supernatural toughness, and anything that inflicts stress on it means that some of the zombies in it are getting turned to chunks.  Consequences could be along the lines of "Hole in the middle of the blob," which the PCs could take advantage of to kill even more of them.

You could also give it the multi-limbed power from the custom thread, to let it make (weak) spray attacks with fists. 

[admiralducksauce]

If it's 0, then half the time the zombies will either not be moving, or falling over themselves.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding the rules.  If you spend your action for the round moving, and without taking into account obstacles and blocks, you should ALWAYS move 1 zone at minimum.  You can move 1 zone as a supplemental action and then do something else, even!  You should not move backwards or fall over simply because you have a Mediocre Athletics and chose to roll that skill that round.  That's dumb.

[Mr. Death]

Another option if going with a negative Endurance - they can move faster / through obstacles if they wish but doing doing so requires an Endurance test against the obstacle / speed with any shifts they don't make being taken as stress & causing consequences.

It gives you the picture of a zombie dragging itself through a broken window to get at you...and leaving a trail of its own entrails in its wake.  Or the zombie who makes a sudden lunge across the room to grab you...and you hear its own bones snapping as it does.

Without much (or any) points in a dodging skill, they're going to be taking plenty stress and consequences as is, they don't need to be falling apart on their own. At least, not the fresh ones.

As for rules, instead of stress, give them a threshold you need to overcome. If you don't cause 3 stress in one hit, you do surface damage that isn't even worth tracking. You either do enough to take the thing out, or you do nothing. Of course, that's past whatever armour rating you decide to give them from toughness.

I've mentioned why I'm against the "take it out, or do nothing" approach before: Consequences, I feel, are a good and convenient way to model the fact they can take a lot of punishment but keep coming--just without an arm or leg by the end.

For a horde of zombies rolling athletics for all of them will be a chore anyway.

I use a bot for rolling purposes, so it's not much of a big deal to roll a dozen times in quick succession.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding the rules.  If you spend your action for the round moving, and without taking into account obstacles and blocks, you should ALWAYS move 1 zone at minimum.  You can move 1 zone as a supplemental action and then do something else, even!  You should not move backwards or fall over simply because you have a Mediocre Athletics and chose to roll that skill that round.  That's dumb.

Well, mostly I was going to use the rolls to determine which, if any, zombies are actually getting into range of the PCs. A conflict might start with the PCs at one end of a hallway, and a couple dozen zombies at the other, say, two or three zones away, and I'd roll a handful at a time to see how much of the horde is managing to get close. I figure giving them Average Athletics would end up with more making the roll per turn, cranking up the tension for the PCs better.

In all, I think I'm going to go with 0 Athletics and a stunt to boost it when pursuing prey. That plus Zombie Toughness ought to make them easy to hit, but still able to pursue and able to take a lot of punishment before they're Taken Out.

How's this as a revision:

Romero Style Zombie

High Concept: Shambling Flesh Eating Corpse
Other Aspects: Driven By Hunger; "Removing the Head or Destroying the Brain"; Slow but Steady; Never Just One Zombie
Skills:
Great (+4): Might
Good (+3): Fists
Fair (+2): Alertness,
Average (+1): Contacts
Stunts:
No Pain, No Gain: Extra Mild physical consequence
Predator's Drive: Athletics is rolled at +2 when pursuing prey.
Powers:
Living Dead [-1]
Claws [-3] (Venomous, biting)
Zombie Toughness [-3] (2 extra Mild consequences, 1 extra Moderate)
The Catch [+2] (Headshots)
Zombie Moan [-1] When spotting prey, a zombie may make a Contacts roll at +2 to summon more of their friends. This allows any zombie within earshot to take advantage of Predator's Drive.
Total Refresh Cost:
-6
Stress:
Mental OO
Physical OO
Social OO

Notes: The classic shambling zombie is slow to move, and on the surface looks fragile, but as a being driven solely by hunger, simple things like wounds and lost limbs aren't going to make it stop. Zombie Toughness and No Pain, No Gain mean that while they have no effective dodge score, they can take a lot of punishment before they go down--they should take every consequence except Extreme before being truly Taken Out--and should get back up again anyway unless someone puts a bullet through its brain. One zombie shouldn't be much trouble for a competent combatant, but they can still be dangerous if they get close, with a Weapon:2 venomous bite rolled from Good (+3), and Great (+4) death grip (har har) for grappling. If that wasn't bad enough, any zombie who spots you might use Zombie Moan to bring more to the party, and any character Taken Out via zombie bite will rise as one within the hour. Use the time it takes them to shamble into range to put them down, or at least blow enough bits off them to make good your escape.

Older, more decrepit zombies might have Athletics, Might, or Endurance one point lower--and thus no physical stress track at all--and come with consequences already filled. Fresher or just tougher zombies might have a point in Endurance or Athletics, and the stunt Tough Stuff to add armor against blunt objects.

[TheMouse]

I've mentioned why I'm against the "take it out, or do nothing" approach before: Consequences, I feel, are a good and convenient way to model the fact they can take a lot of punishment but keep coming--just without an arm or leg by the end.

My suggestion serves two purposes:

1. Non critical attacks against zombies are often portrayed as doing more or less nothing to stop them. My suggestion is an easy way to do exactly that without complication.

2. Tracking Consequences for literal hordes of zombies will get very tedious very quickly. My way keeps the bookkeeping to a binary status: They're fine, or they're down.

In short, it's a simple way to quickly and easily represent how zombies are often portrayed in movies that requires very little effort.

However, if you were against that, I'd represent a horde of zombies almost like an environmental hazard with armour and a stress track. Everyone inside the area of effect has to resist the attacks and damage. Causing stress and Consequences is about ending the threat a lot more than it is about causing harm to an individual zombie. This accomplishes much the same thing as the above suggestion and allows you to dial up and down the threat by changing armour, stress, and number/type of Consequences.

[Becq]

I like the idea of adding Zombie Toughness to the template, but I'm not sure about the Strong and Oh-My-God templates. I don't want the headshot thing to be purely brute force/math--needing 5 stress makes it way too easy (especially with no Athletics score), and 25 stress is way too much.

Just to clarify because it sounds as though you misunderstood ... I wasn't suggesting three different power levels of templates, or that a GM might want to use the "Oh My God" option as a 'standard zombie'.  I was just pointing out how you could use the 'Types of Opposition' section (YS327) in combination with a 'standard' zombie template to allow for weak mook zombies and more powerful "boss-grade" zombies without needing completely seperate templates.  This is no different than any other NPC type; nameless grunt RCVs have no inherent consequences and are therefore easier to kill than archvillain RCVs.

And if you have a 'main NPC' who is a zombie, you don't want them to be one-shot insta-killed, so the 25 stress is perfectly fine; it just requires that the PCs wear him down by burning through those consequences a bit (lopping off arms and such) before they can take him out (either with head shots or with brute force).