Armor Piercing

[Mr. Death]

How would you handle magical attacks specifically geared to pierce armor and shielding? I ask because one character of mine, a Focused Practitioner with Ritual (Crafting) geared toward combat items is based on another character I have from another setting whose big power is an armor piercing shot. For this, I had imagined it as a 5-shift, one shot Enchanted item, which acts as Weapon:3, and ignores up to Armor:2, but on creatures without armor, is just a Weapon:3 attack.

I realize, of course, that he'd get more mileage out of just a solid Weapon:5 attack, since it'd do more damage to all enemies that way, but I tend to let the concept dictate rather than what's optimized sometimes.

How has anyone else handled this, if it's ever come up?

[InFerrumVeritas]

How would you handle magical attacks specifically geared to pierce armor and shielding? I ask because one character of mine, a Focused Practitioner with Ritual (Crafting) geared toward combat items is based on another character I have from another setting whose big power is an armor piercing shot. For this, I had imagined it as a 5-shift, one shot Enchanted item, which acts as Weapon:3, and ignores up to Armor:2, but on creatures without armor, is just a Weapon:3 attack.

I realize, of course, that he'd get more mileage out of just a solid Weapon:5 attack, since it'd do more damage to all enemies that way, but I tend to let the concept dictate rather than what's optimized sometimes.

How has anyone else handled this, if it's ever come up?

I tend to handle it the simplest way I can: raise the weapon rating.  If I want something that isn't that powerful (like, say an attack that's simply just as effective against armored and unarmored opponents), I just use an aspect. 

Let's say "munition's expert sniper guy" wants to have a round that'll pierce most types of ballistic armor.  He could roll resources (modified possibly by contacts, guns, or whatever depending on how he wants to obtain the bullet) and declare that he has "Armor Piercing Ammo."  When he shoots, I'd let him get a free tag to have it ignore that armor (possibly for a scene, depending on how powerful it was in that particular encounter). 

Another example would be "munition's expert sniper guy" wanting to shoot a wizard.  He wants to be able to ignore that wizard's block/armor.  He could roll resources (modified by lore and contacts, likely) to declare that he has some type of ammo which can bypass magical defenses like a "Magic Bullet."  He could then tag it when necessary (this I wouldn't allow for a scene hardly ever, as it is significantly more powerful than the previous example).

[devonapple]

I agree with simply raising the power of the evocation. A GM may allow the player to make a Maneuver to place the Aspect "Armor Piercing Magic" which can be invoked for a bonus or other effect, but that would be a separate action.

[Aminar]

Were I the DM, and a player asked me for an armor piercing spell I'd give them 2 points of armor reduction for 1 point of power, but have them have a discipline roll as if the spell were two shifts higher.

So say you have 5 conviction.  You would have a weapon 4 spell that cut through 2 layers of armor, but need to roll discipline as if the spell had 6 total power.

That's me though.  I also allow my players to make a 4 strength spell that doubles as a 2 strength attack and 2 strength block, or a 2 strength tripping spell. 

[Orladdin]

Were I the DM, and a player asked me for an armor piercing spell I'd give them 2 points of armor reduction for 1 point of power, but have them have a discipline roll as if the spell were two shifts higher.

So say you have 5 conviction.  You would have a weapon 4 spell that cut through 2 layers of armor, but need to roll discipline as if the spell had 6 total power.
...

That's actually a pretty cool idea-- it's like you get some extra power for free against armor, but it takes finer control to use it.  Classy solution!

[Aminar]

That's actually a pretty cool idea-- it's like you get some extra power for free against armor, but it takes finer control to use it.  Classy solution!

Issue being Rote Spells, but If they spend a rote spell on something this narrowly useful(Albeight still really useful against big bads.) I suppose they lose out in a more adaptable spell.

[Orladdin]

Issue being Rote Spells, but If they spend a rote spell on something this narrowly useful(Albeight still really useful against big bads.) I suppose they lose out in a more adaptable spell.

Yeah, but if they make a rote of it, it's just like a human gunman spending extra resources/room in his gear for AP rounds at times when they are no more useful than regular rounds.  The character decides if that sacrifice is worthwhile or not.

[Sanctaphrax]

Were I the DM, and a player asked me for an armor piercing spell I'd give them 2 points of armor reduction for 1 point of power, but have them have a discipline roll as if the spell were two shifts higher.

So say you have 5 conviction.  You would have a weapon 4 spell that cut through 2 layers of armor, but need to roll discipline as if the spell had 6 total power.

I don't follow. How is this better in any situation than a simple 6-power attack evocation?

I'd probably just give the enchanted item an aspect, Mr Death. Invokable, compellable, but not taggable.

[Orladdin]

How is this better in any situation than a simple 6-power attack evocation?\

It would be better in limited circumstances/builds.  If you have a lower conviction than discipline or if you make a rote of the spell.  It's good if you want to give a minimal boost to AP without making it a common tactic.

I don't know it the game necessarily needs AP; to be honest.

[Sanctaphrax]

But wouldn't weapon 6 be as good or better in every situation?

And since they both require the same amount of effort to control, I see no reason not to just use a weapon 6 spell.

[Aminar]

They require just as much effort to control, but if the character has conviction 5 this spell is better on a first shot.  It's situational, but also really cool concept wise(and that matters more.)(Especially when it comes to consequences like-broken armor giving them the ability to let their opponents avoid armor kinda stuff.)

[Sanctaphrax]

How is it better?

Oh, wait a minute. Are you allowing someone with Conviction 5 to cast it for 1 mental stress?

[Todjaeger]

Honestly, the first thing which comes to mind with respect to a magical "Armor Piercing" attack is, why bother?

If someone has some type of armor they're wearing/using, instead of making an attack to 'pierce' the armor, why not just make a type of attack the armor doesn't protect against?

While the RAW doesn't specifically mention different types of armor, in the real world there are indeed different types of armor, with the different types designed to protect against certain types of injuries or against certain types of weapons.  A good example of this would be the different types of bulletproof vest.  The name itself even indicates what type of weapon it's designed to protect again, so someone wearing a bulletproof vest isn't going to be any safer from being stabbed or hacked at with an axe than someone not wearing a bulletproof vest.

If somebody is wearing a bulletproof vest and you want to attack them with an Evocation, a fire blast or lightning would work.

In the case of magical armor, like that worked by the Leanansidhe in Changes, I don't see the point (or balance in) allowing a magical, armor piercing attack.  For one thing, armor doesn't make it harder to hit, it just reduces the amount of stress taken from a successful hit.  For the other, while armor does persist if/when overcome unlike a Block, armor also has half the value of the number of shifts put into it, again unlike a Block.

-Cheers

[Mr. Death]

Well, I did say that I was doing it more for thematic reasons than for gameplay efficiency. In the end I'll probably just go with it being a higher powered attack.

[Orladdin]

It just occurred to me that this is the inverse of a problem I solved in one of my games. 

The player of the wizard character wanted to make a shield spell that was "optimized" a certain way.  Like Harry's original was against kinetic energy, my earth wizard wanted his to be magnetic in origin and to stop metals/electrical effects.  I let him put the free Aspect on his shield "Optimized for Metals and Electricity."  He could invoke it against bullets; enemies who were using baseball bats or fists or any number of other things could discover/tag the aspect to punch through the shield easier.

You could do something similar.  Give the spell a the aspect "Great Against Kevlar-- and That's About It" and discover/tag/invoke with NPCs occasionally.

Y'know, use the system that's already in place with Aspects.